Quote from: RennaI think if you just gave the Sorcerer a normal spell progression (getting 2nd level spells at 3rd level instead of 4th), they'd be a nice compromise between a Wizard and a Warmage. Not as focused as the Warmage, not as flexible as the Wizard, but not totally screwed by the delayed spell progression.

there is wisdom here.

I think it's also worth pointing out that the "suckitude" of sorcerers seems to be based solely on their combat performance, rather than their roleplayig performance. of course, this goes back to CZ's sufficient work clause, though...

Quote from: ThjalfiI think it's also worth pointing out that the "suckitude" of sorcerers seems to be based solely on their combat performance, rather than their roleplayig performance.

Yea, with slight modification to "mechanical performance" instead of "combat performance."   Part of the problem with sorcerers is they wind up being geared entirely for combat (since that's a life or death matter in most games).  Once optimized for combat, they don't have many non-combat options in terms of spells; they can't switch gears as much as the wizards.  

But I've always liked the flavor text distinctions between sorcerers and wizards.

Quote from: NicephorusYea, with slight modification to "mechanical performance" instead of "combat performance."   Part of the problem with sorcerers is they wind up being geared entirely for combat (since that's a life or death matter in most games).  Once optimized for combat, they don't have many non-combat options in terms of spells; they can't switch gears as much as the wizards.  

But I've always liked the flavor text distinctions between sorcerers and wizards.

I agree with that. The biggest problem with Sorcerers (aside from the spell progression issue) is that they get NOTHING else. Sure, a familiar at first level, but that's it. No bonus feats, no other class features...nothing.

They need other features/feats as they raise in level. I'm thinking specific metamagic feats. Eschew Materials at 1st, maybe Still Spell at 4th, Silent Spell at 7th, etc. Something like that.

Quote from: RennaI agree with that. The biggest problem with Sorcerers (aside from the spell progression issue) is that they get NOTHING else. Sure, a familiar at first level, but that's it. No bonus feats, no other class features...nothing.

They need other features/feats as they raise in level. I'm thinking specific metamagic feats. Eschew Materials at 1st, maybe Still Spell at 4th, Silent Spell at 7th, etc. Something like that.

the problem is that metamagic feats are really non-functional, and the spontaneous line is already given to warmages for free.

Quote from: Thjalfithe problem is that metamagic feats are really non-functional, and the spontaneous line is already given to warmages for free.

What do you mean by 'non-fuctional'?

Quote from: RennaWhat do you mean by 'non-fuctional'?

Well he could mean that they suck and so aren't worth taking.

More likely, though, he's thinking of the fact that spontaneous casters take a full round to cast with metamagic -- a full round where the DM is going to go after them with every monster, meaning the fucking spell will never get cast.

Or a class ability, say, at 10th level, the ability to use metamagic feats using slots one level lower than normal. Or something.

Quote from: RennaWhat do you mean by 'non-fuctional'?

Sorcerers take a full round to cast a metamagicked spell.  That means Quicken Spell is absolute idiocy (despite being dead-on for the Sorcerer feel), and the other Metamagic feats are less than optional.

I've seen Sorcerer used to great effect in a Gestalt combo, but on its own it feels incomplete compared to other classes.  Maybe add some draconic crap to give it a flavor noticeably different from Wizard, Warmage, and Warlock.

I do kinda like Sorcerer plus Eschew Materials.  If only my DM would let me add Vow of Poverty, I'd play one in a heartbeat.

Quote from: CyberzombieWell he could mean that they suck and so aren't worth taking.

More likely, though, he's thinking of the fact that spontaneous casters take a full round to cast with metamagic -- a full round where the DM is going to go after them with every monster, meaning the fucking spell will never get cast.

Sorcerers using a metamagic feat don't take one full round to cast the spell, it takes a full-round action (unless the spell has a casting time greater that one standard action). As a full-round action, I can see metamagic feats coming in handy for Sorcerers.

Here's the relevant SRD for it:

QuoteSorcerers and bards must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spell's normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. Note that this isn't the same as a spell with a 1-round casting time—the spell takes effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you aren't required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn. For spells with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the metamagic spell.

Unless this has been changed recently through errata or something.

About the only metamagic feat that's worthless is Quicken. I think the others are useful enough that they could be awarded as bonus feats at varying levels.

Another factor that might not really be worth considering -- sorcerers make arguably better, easier, more functional NPCs than wizards do.  

An NPC wizard requires a lot more prep work from the DM -- and a lot of that work is pretty unstructured, as the DM tries  to sort out what to put into the wizard's spellbook -- assuming that the spellbook is going to be captured, after all.  

An NPC sorcerer doesn't have a spellbook, and doesn't prepare spells -- the number of spells available is much more structured (limited by the class, while a wizard's spellbook can literally have any number of spells in it, theoretically).  And it's possible to have an NPC sorcerer with a nasty new spell without the worry that the spell is going to end up in the hands of the PCs and unbalancing your game.  

It's a lot more obvious in the case of PRCs that some classes are really not targeted at PCs, unless you run fairly off-center campaigns.  The same *could* be considered in the case of PC classes -- while they're all technically available, maybe some are just better suited to NPCs than for PCs.  

At the same time, I've seen some good players make excellent use of sorcerers, both as a minor part of a multi-class character, and as a dedicated sorcerer.  Don't forget that a properly run wizard required a TON of gold to keep supplied with new spells and spare spellbooks -- and the sorcerer can spend her money on magic items instead.  

-rg

I would just like to note that game designers that use two different meanings for the same exact term -- full round action -- should be SHOT between the eyes.  Preferably before they breed.

Quote from: CyberzombieI would just like to note that game designers that use two different meanings for the same exact term -- full round action -- should be SHOT between the eyes.  Preferably before they breed.

Agreed. The have the full-round action and the 1 full round action, each having completely in-game mechanics.

Someone should definitely be shot for that. Can we take it out on Darrin?

Quote from: RennaAgreed. The have the full-round action and the 1 full round action, each having completely in-game mechanics.

Someone should definitely be shot for that. Can we take it out on Darrin?

You could try, but he shoots back.

Shoots first, sometimes.  :heh:


This thread has inspired me to make a new alt.sorcerer, but I posted a new thread instead of doing a hijack.  

The first instance of Sorcerer I saw was a half-dragon Sor/Pal combo.  He was pretty scary for a short while (5th-8th levels), but really could have benefited from the alt.rules in UA for buying down level adjustments.