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Author Topic: Help! I optimize too much!  (Read 2230 times)

Thjalfi

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Help! I optimize too much!
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2006, 10:56:00 AM »
Quote from: Radu the Wanderer

It was a little surprising, and inspired the first post.  I have since found the responses to be quite amusing, especially the story about the sorcerer who just wouldn't listen.  It reminds me of some of my early play experiences with 3rd ed, which I'm glad to have put behind me.  


Trust me, it may sound amusing from the outside, but dealing with it from the inside... And still dealing with it... and still dealing with it.... Is just fucking annoying.
 

Name Lips

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« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2006, 11:28:42 AM »
It's true that you can optimize AND role play.

But there are some concepts that it's just difficult to create a worthwhile build from.

Say I want to play a character who's a member of an obscure cultish group that lives in the wilderness. They emphasize wilderness skills, tracking, stealth, infiltration, snares and traps, and general survival. They train extensivly with bows, clubs, spears, and unarmed combat. They would use only leather or hide armor.

This is a fun character concept. But it's virtually impossible to build without also accumulating skills/abilities that are entirely out of place (why would they know how to use a sword or morningstar?). Using the core rules, I could attempt to create some sort of fighter/ranger hybrid, ignore skills/abilities that don't fit, and just do my best to role-play it.

But I guarantee you the two-bladed sword pure-fighter trip-monkey will outshine me in virtually every way, inside combat. And a pure rogue or ranger would outshine me in virtually every way, outside of combat. I could do my best to min/max him, and he'd be perfectly viable (I admit) in a party, but ANY player who decided to min/max first and role-play second would have a more effecient build. I'm sacrificing effeciency for role-playing goodness. This, by the way, is a trade-off I've willingly made before.

But should that be required? Should players who come up with a unique and interesting character concept be penalized because such a concept can't, by the rules, be min/maxed to as great a degree of effeciency as the guy whose whole concept is "my character is, like, really good with bows"?
Next phase, new wave, dance craze, anyways, it's still rock and roll to me.

You can talk all you want about theory, craft, or whatever. But in the end, it's still just new ways of looking at people playing make-believe and having a good time with their friends. Intellectualize or analyze all you want, but we've been playing the same game since we were 2 years old. We just have shinier books, spend more money, and use bigger words now.

Svartalf

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« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2006, 12:40:57 PM »
You'll forgive me, Radu... but I'm leery about your saying that optimisation is not contradictory with rp ing. It's true, you can create character that will stay "in character" while making very rationalised and power oriented advancement choices. But I know from experience that many a character would not stay in character making such choices, and that "in character" choices involve making sub optimal decisions.
 

Radu the Wanderer

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« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2006, 12:23:27 AM »
I can see your point, Svartalf, but I have to disagree.

Games are defined by their rules.  In fact, the rules ARE the game.  Everything else is just fluff.  Consider: you can have an RPG where you play stereotyped western movie archetypes.  You're in a saloon, playing a game of Texas Hold Em.  How do you do this?  Simple.  Play a game of Texas Hold Em and ham it up with a funny drawl or an exaggerated scowl.  Maybe wear a cowboy hat.  Fuck, go for broke and have tacky, out of tune piano music playing in the background and slam down tequila while you're at it.  But at the core, you know what's going on?

Not Roleplaying.  Not "Speghetti Western: The RPG."  Texas Hold Em.  That's right, you're playing poker.  Poker with theatrics, but poker nonetheless.  The mechanics of poker will create power imbalances between the players depending on who is more lucky and skillful than others and who knows the rules better.  If your character is supposed to be a poker wiz kid, you damn well better be one, because the ACTUAL game (poker) and CONCEPTUAL GAME (spheghetti western: the RPG) are totally different animals.

It's similar in DND: the ACTUAL game you're playing is rather boring-- roll the dice and track the numbers.  The CONCEPTUAL game is what keeps people coming back-- the thrill of the critical hit, the joys of completing a story arc, and the glee that comes from properly portraying your character.  The conceptual game is the soul of the game, but the actual game is the no bullshit meat and potatoes that allows the conceptual game to thrive.  Otherwise it's just improvised theatrics, and a whole different animal.

Character Optimization and Role Play are NOT mutually exclusive by any means.  They are in fact two facets of the same thing--- playing the goddamn game.  Character Optimizers play the ACTUAL game.  Role Players play the CONCEPTUAL game.  These are two aspects of the TOTAL GAME: mechanics and storyline immersion combined.

If the terms actual and conceptual game are offensive, then change them up-- they're my terms and my definitions, but the fact still remains that as I see it everything outside of bare bones mechanical nitty gritty shit is just window dressing.  It's what makes a Sci Fi RPG different from a Gothic Horror RPG.  You might strike someone in the 342nd neural cluster with a critical hit due to your ingrained anatomical charts in your digital-optic eye replacements or you might lash out in utter terror and the pure rush of your fear fills your body with a might and strength that you never thought possible, crushing your enemy's skull with a tire iron.  You know what happened "behind the scenes?"  You rolled a 20 and confirmed the hit.

You see how RP and CO aren't mutually exclusive?  They're different skill sets, that's all, and they relate to different facets of the game.  What frustrates me so much is when people will sabotage one in favor of the other-- IN EITHER DIRECTION.  A paper filled with stats is no fun to play, but neither is a paper tiger that's impressive as hell in concept but a pushover in actual play.  You need a balance of both for an enjoyable game.

This isn't an attack on roleplayers, it's a refutation of Power Gamers and Drama Queens.  Power Gamers need to add some life to their stat blocks, and Drama Queens need to give their avatars some backbone.  I'm sick of players who refuse to do one or the other.
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Thjalfi

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« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2006, 01:22:44 AM »
Quote from: Radu the Wanderer

This isn't an attack on roleplayers, it's a refutation of Power Gamers and Drama Queens.  Power Gamers need to add some life to their stat blocks, and Drama Queens need to give their avatars some backbone.  I'm sick of players who refuse to do one or the other.


halleluja!
 

Cyclotron

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« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2006, 12:44:41 PM »
Quote from: Radu the Wanderer
This isn't an attack on roleplayers, it's a refutation of Power Gamers and Drama Queens.  Power Gamers need to add some life to their stat blocks, and Drama Queens need to give their avatars some backbone.

My daughter, Kate, agrees...  :heh:
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ergeheilalt

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« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2006, 04:51:41 PM »
Quote from: Radu the Wanderer
I can see your point, Svartalf, but I have to disagree.

Games are defined by their rules.  In fact, the rules ARE the game.  Everything else is just fluff.  Consider: you can have an RPG where you play stereotyped western movie archetypes.  You're in a saloon, playing a game of Texas Hold Em.  How do you do this?  Simple.  Play a game of Texas Hold Em and ham it up with a funny drawl or an exaggerated scowl.  Maybe wear a cowboy hat.  Fuck, go for broke and have tacky, out of tune piano music playing in the background and slam down tequila while you're at it.  But at the core, you know what's going on?

Not Roleplaying.  Not "Speghetti Western: The RPG."  Texas Hold Em.  That's right, you're playing poker.  Poker with theatrics, but poker nonetheless.  The mechanics of poker will create power imbalances between the players depending on who is more lucky and skillful than others and who knows the rules better.  If your character is supposed to be a poker wiz kid, you damn well better be one, because the ACTUAL game (poker) and CONCEPTUAL GAME (spheghetti western: the RPG) are totally different animals.

It's similar in DND: the ACTUAL game you're playing is rather boring-- roll the dice and track the numbers.  The CONCEPTUAL game is what keeps people coming back-- the thrill of the critical hit, the joys of completing a story arc, and the glee that comes from properly portraying your character.  The conceptual game is the soul of the game, but the actual game is the no bullshit meat and potatoes that allows the conceptual game to thrive.  Otherwise it's just improvised theatrics, and a whole different animal.

Character Optimization and Role Play are NOT mutually exclusive by any means.  They are in fact two facets of the same thing--- playing the goddamn game.  Character Optimizers play the ACTUAL game.  Role Players play the CONCEPTUAL game.  These are two aspects of the TOTAL GAME: mechanics and storyline immersion combined.

If the terms actual and conceptual game are offensive, then change them up-- they're my terms and my definitions, but the fact still remains that as I see it everything outside of bare bones mechanical nitty gritty shit is just window dressing.  It's what makes a Sci Fi RPG different from a Gothic Horror RPG.  You might strike someone in the 342nd neural cluster with a critical hit due to your ingrained anatomical charts in your digital-optic eye replacements or you might lash out in utter terror and the pure rush of your fear fills your body with a might and strength that you never thought possible, crushing your enemy's skull with a tire iron.  You know what happened "behind the scenes?"  You rolled a 20 and confirmed the hit.

You see how RP and CO aren't mutually exclusive?  They're different skill sets, that's all, and they relate to different facets of the game.  What frustrates me so much is when people will sabotage one in favor of the other-- IN EITHER DIRECTION.  A paper filled with stats is no fun to play, but neither is a paper tiger that's impressive as hell in concept but a pushover in actual play.  You need a balance of both for an enjoyable game.

This isn't an attack on roleplayers, it's a refutation of Power Gamers and Drama Queens.  Power Gamers need to add some life to their stat blocks, and Drama Queens need to give their avatars some backbone.  I'm sick of players who refuse to do one or the other.


If there were rep, you'd have it.
 

Svartalf

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« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2006, 08:31:49 AM »
Radu, I see your point and beg to continue disagreeing. a full blown optimisation will too often take the character into character and advancement choices he would not normally consider, especially when it requires combinations of skills and feats that are not logical, or intuitive, or that imply knowledge of game mechanics that he would not necessarily have. I have a test for this : just ask the player (or myself when it comes to it) to tell in character what he's doing and why he's doing it. If the answer requires metagame elements, or can't be told in character, because it tells of something the character would not normally do, or know about, then we have fair evidence that the advancement is out of character...

then again, if it's rules legit... there's no rule (not even my own house and table rules :p ) to force anybody to stay in character when it comes to doing game mechanics stuff.

I prefer in character development... but I've seen enough situations where cold, metagame rationality was necessary to ensure long term survival that I'm not yet ready to stone those heretical to my church ;).
 

Cyclotron

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« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2006, 09:30:50 AM »
Quote from: Svartalf
Radu, I see your point and beg to continue disagreeing. a full blown optimisation will too often take the character into character and advancement choices he would not normally consider, especially when it requires combinations of skills and feats that are not logical, or intuitive, or that imply knowledge of game mechanics that he would not necessarily have.

Svart, you apparently fail to realize that Radu specifically condems this sort of behavior as well.  Read it again...

Quote from: Radu the Wanderer
What frustrates me so much is when people will sabotage one in favor of the other-- IN EITHER DIRECTION. A paper filled with stats is no fun to play, but neither is a paper tiger that's impressive as hell in concept but a pushover in actual play. You need a balance of both for an enjoyable game.

This isn't an attack on roleplayers, it's a refutation of Power Gamers and Drama Queens. Power Gamers need to add some life to their stat blocks, and Drama Queens need to give their avatars some backbone.
Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace,
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"Laser beams shall not be aimed at employees."

Svartalf

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« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2006, 09:34:32 AM »
:p maybe I misunderstood... but I used it to make my position ever more clear ... can't hurt I guess, and with luck it will push the discussion along
 

Xavier Lang

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« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2006, 09:42:31 AM »
Quote from: Svartalf
I prefer in character development... but I've seen enough situations where cold, metagame rationality was necessary to ensure long term survival that I'm not yet ready to stone those heretical to my church ;).


I see this as a problem with the person running the game not taking things to there logical conclusion.  If I want players to choose role playing over numbers, then encourage that by not having them fight opponents with a CR appropriate to there level when tweaked for combat.  

If you have level 12 characters with sub optimal builds, feats used on role playing aspects instead of combat, low number of magic items, etc... then you throw them against things that would challenge level 9 or weaker opponents.  If you are encouraging RP, or that is what you want, reward that by making it clear they don't have to twink for combat to survive.

Your other option is to set up situations where combat is a worse choice than something else the characters can do.
 

Cyclotron

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« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2006, 10:52:47 AM »
Quote from: Xavier Lang
I see this as a problem with the person running the game not taking things to there logical conclusion.  If I want players to choose role playing over numbers, then encourage that by not having them fight opponents with a CR appropriate to there level when tweaked for combat.

But more than that...  It's not so much making combats less important, as making the RP-based skills, feats and abilities more important.

What's the point of taking ranks in a skill, or choosing a feat based on your character's background, if you never get the chance to use it in play?  The GM, of course, should provide the occassional opportunity to highlight these abilities to encourage those choices.  But at the same time, the player can't let the GM do all the work.  He has to look around, and make his own opportunities to use those skills...  And then the GM should let him.

Quote from: Xavier Lang
If you have level 12 characters with sub optimal builds, feats used on role playing aspects instead of combat...

I think this the crux of a problem of perception we have in the game...  

The fact that anything that makes your character less than perfectly effective in combat is considered "sub-optimal", and that any choice that's based on the character's background, personality or roleplaying must be "sub-optimal".

A lot of people on both sides of fence believe that.

And it's utter bull shit.
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"Laser beams shall not be aimed at employees."

Svartalf

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« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2006, 11:01:19 AM »
Quote from: Cyclotron

I think this the crux of a problem of perception we have in the game...  

The fact that anything that makes your character less than perfectly effective in combat is considered "sub-optimal", and that any choice that's based on the character's background, personality or roleplaying must be "sub-optimal".

A lot of people on both sides of fence believe that.

And it's utter bull shit.


As being myself guilty of using the phrase "sub optimal" to mean a character who's not 100% made up to be a combat monster, while personally advocating "in character advancement choice :footinmouth:

I have to say I agree 100% :win:
 

Bagpuss

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« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2006, 11:15:07 AM »
Quote from: ergeheilalt
If there were rep, you'd have it.


And if there were neg-reg you'ld have it. Why quote his whole post for that one "me too" line?
 

deree

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« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2006, 07:36:59 PM »
Feeling better about my "inept" optimizing. I suppose my crime is "optomizing" as opposed to "optimizing with intent".
Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my boomstick! It's a twelve gauge double barreled Remington, S-Mart's top-of-the-line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids Michigan. Retails for about $109.95. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel and a hair trigger. That's right. Shop Smart. Shop S-mart. Ya got that?! Now I swear, the next one of you primates, even touches me...