How about a system that splits the difference? You MAY reroll the entire batch upon attaining a new level OR you may keep what you have and add to it with a single HD roll? That way players don't feel TOTALLY screwed by crap dice rolls.

Quote from: finarvyn on March 20, 2024, 07:58:35 AM
The problem is pre-Greyhawk OD&D, where HD go from 1+1 to 2 to 2+1 and so on, where sometimes you aren't adding a full die. Going from 2 to 2+1 is a no-brainer, but how to you go from 1+1 to 2? Add a new die and subtract one to account for the old +1?

The "obvious" answer is to subtract 1 from your existing total, then add a new die (this generates the same result as your "add a new die and subtract one", but it's much more defensible).  The point of the blogpost was to show that we aren't actually told to do this, we are simply shown an example of an existing 8th level fighting-man.

The reason the obvious answer is to subtract 1 from your existing total and then add a new die is that the table shows us what we have.  If the table went 1, then 1+1, then 1, you'd know what to do- you'd roll a hit die and have that, then the next level you'd add one to it, and then the next level you'd subtract the 1 back out.  That's because one level has a +1 and the next level does not, so it has to go.  Hence, if you rolled 4 and added 1 for 5, when you hit level 2 you'd subtract the 1 out to get 4, and then roll a new die and it in.  You wouldn't roll a d5 (nothing says that), or roll a die and subtract 1 (even though that makes the same result), because the table never tells you to add or subtract, the table tells you what you have and you have to make that happen. 

The idea that you might instead roll all the dice anew each level is interesting, especially in light of the fact that there's some people claiming that this was what happened at other tables.  It doesn't violate the rules, after all. 

The idea that you would roll all the dice and take the new one if higher isn't supported by those rules, but the point that in Empire of the Petal Throne, which was nearly coincident with all the others, does that, means that it was known at the time.  Probably Kevin Crawford knew about this when he was scouring old and new mechanics for his Without Number series, as this is the exact mechanic he uses.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 20, 2024, 08:42:14 AM
How about a system that splits the difference? You MAY reroll the entire batch upon attaining a new level OR you may keep what you have and add to it with a single HD roll? That way players don't feel TOTALLY screwed by crap dice rolls.

That doesn't "split the difference", that just offers a buff.  The player has to make a decision that could be wrong as well.  Given that the spirit of the thread seems to be to try to figure out how it was written and played in the 70s, it seems not exactly in the same theme- but hey, I bet someone did that too back then.  What's the saying, basically all the mechanics had shown up in some context or other before the early 80s had concluded?

Quote from: David Johansen on March 20, 2024, 12:12:33 AM
I still want to know why characters don't get their zero level hit dice like everyone else does.

I did that for a long time. "Zero" level characters would get a hit die according to their race. And then you'd roll your first level hit points based on your class and use whichever one was higher. This meant that human magic-users would tend to have higher starting hit points than hobbit ones. [But for me the results were more extreme because I had both Ogres and Pixies as default races]

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 20, 2024, 08:42:14 AM
How about a system that splits the difference? You MAY reroll the entire batch upon attaining a new level OR you may keep what you have and add to it with a single HD roll? That way players don't feel TOTALLY screwed by crap dice rolls.

That's only if you use the Gygaxian hit dice system which is fundamentally limited to only 5 possible hit dice progressions (d4, d6, d8, etc). When you design your game from the ground up to use re-roll every level you no longer need to be restricted to that limitation. Hit point progression can start off fast and get slower, start off slow and get faster, stop, or even change hit die types at any point in the character's life.

This is how I implemented Ogres and Giants IMC. They start off young and human sized and get d8 hit points per hit die. But as they grow (which is based on age, not XP) their hit die changes to d10 and, eventually d12. So a character could go from hit points that are 4d8 to 4d10. You can only do something like that with a rerolling-based hit point system.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 20, 2024, 11:45:43 AM
That's only if you use the Gygaxian hit dice system which is fundamentally limited to only 5 possible hit dice progressions (d4, d6, d8, etc). When you design your game from the ground up to use re-roll every level you no longer need to be restricted to that limitation. Hit point progression can start off fast and get slower, start off slow and get faster, stop, or even change hit die types at any point in the character's life.

This is how I implemented Ogres and Giants IMC. They start off young and human sized and get d8 hit points per hit die. But as they grow (which is based on age, not XP) their hit die changes to d10 and, eventually d12. So a character could go from hit points that are 4d8 to 4d10. You can only do something like that with a rerolling-based hit point system.

Not that I've ever felt the need to do this, but IF I wanted to do a game with semi-realistic aging penalties, one of the things that I would do is force a reroll of the entire hit point set with a minus at certain ages, the only difference being that when rolling for age, you take the new total even if it is lower.

This would be especially telling if hit dice were rerolled every level, even past the point where you don't get more.  Take an AD&D fighter.  Hit name level, roll the 9 dice, get the total.  Every level, add in the flat bonus to the roll, and keep rolling.  Through a bunch of levels, the tendency is going to be that skew the rolls a bit higher than average.  That's even if you start putting on modest age penalties at age 25 or 30.  Eventually, the minus from age starts to tell. 

Anyway, I've yet to run a game spread out over enough decades where such things would matter.  But the idea has always appealed to me.  It's also been in the back of my mind to use it as part of the replacement character rules.  Typically, I don't make all replacement characters start at level 1, past a certain point of experience by the player in the campaign.  However, characters that start at higher levels are not quite as good as characters that are played up from the level 1.  Tacking on some age penalties in return for getting to start the character higher would be yet another way to distinguish.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 20, 2024, 11:32:30 AMI did that for a long time. "Zero" level characters would get a hit die according to their race.

I just went with your Constitution being your 'starting HP' at Lvl 0. Since the average is ~10, that basically fits most 1E AD&D 0-lvl characters. Of course, I did away with the Con Bonus on every HD, so the math is almost the same (though I had to bump Fighters to d12, and make them the only ones to get d12). And yes, I know this front-loads the characters a bit, but you can still die quickly in combat.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 20, 2024, 01:11:24 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 20, 2024, 11:32:30 AMI did that for a long time. "Zero" level characters would get a hit die according to their race.

I just went with your Constitution being your 'starting HP' at Lvl 0. Since the average is ~10, that basically fits most 1E AD&D 0-lvl characters. Of course, I did away with the Con Bonus on every HD, so the math is almost the same (though I had to bump Fighters to d12, and make them the only ones to get d12). And yes, I know this front-loads the characters a bit, but you can still die quickly in combat.

What 0 level character gets 10 HP? A man at arms has 4-7 and non-fighter types have less than that.

Quote from: Venka on March 20, 2024, 02:10:34 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 19, 2024, 07:47:44 PM
The table itself dioes kind of hint at that being the case. A level 1 fighter has 1+1 HD. When 2nd level is reached and the new HD total is 2, if you didn't roll 2 dice what is the alternative?

I think the alternative is that you replace the +1 with the new hit die, which could also be a 1, but could also be higher than a 1.

Quote from: Domina on March 20, 2024, 12:29:36 AM
The alternative is rolling two dice and adding the result to your hp, since it says roll two dice.

This is incorrect and not an alternative.  The ways of interpreting it are:
You could subtract out the constant and then roll the new die.
You could reroll all your dice at every level and take that as your total.
A case is made for the method that was allegedly used at other tables, which is:
You could roll all your dice at every level and take that as your total if it is higher.

If you have 5 hit points and achieve level 2, you don't add two dice to the 5.  We know this because there's an example that precludes this possibility, and also, no rule tells us to do this.

You could also interpret it as rolling the listed dice at each level and adding to your total.

Quote from: Domina on March 24, 2024, 01:01:43 AM
You could also interpret it as rolling the listed dice at each level and adding to your total.

You need to find some friends and actually play the game. The retarded hill you are trying to die on has a Level 4 Fighting-man with the same hit points as a Level 10 dragon.

Quote from: FingerRod on March 24, 2024, 09:42:51 AM

Quote from: Domina on March 24, 2024, 01:01:43 AM
You could also interpret it as rolling the listed dice at each level and adding to your total.

You need to find some friends and actually play the game. The retarded hill you are trying to die on has a Level 4 Fighting-man with the same hit points as a Level 10 dragon.

If you check this troll's posting history, you'll see that you've given it an almost insurmountable task...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on March 24, 2024, 09:46:29 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on March 24, 2024, 09:42:51 AM

Quote from: Domina on March 24, 2024, 01:01:43 AM
You could also interpret it as rolling the listed dice at each level and adding to your total.

You need to find some friends and actually play the game. The retarded hill you are trying to die on has a Level 4 Fighting-man with the same hit points as a Level 10 dragon.

If you check this troll's posting history, you'll see that you've given it an almost insurmountable task...

Oh wow, it appears that I have.

Quote from: FingerRod on March 24, 2024, 09:42:51 AM
You need to find some friends and actually play the game. The retarded hill you are trying to die on has a Level 4 Fighting-man with the same hit points as a Level 10 dragon.

Why the hostility?

Quote from: Ruprecht on March 24, 2024, 05:44:53 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on March 24, 2024, 09:42:51 AM
You need to find some friends and actually play the game. The retarded hill you are trying to die on has a Level 4 Fighting-man with the same hit points as a Level 10 dragon.

Why the hostility?

I don't think I'm the topic.

You emphasized those words, not me. If anything, I would have emphasized actually play the game.

Those words changed a normal comment into something personal and hostile. This isn't forchan or something awful so I'm curious why you added the unnecessary insults.

Quote from: Ruprecht on March 24, 2024, 10:08:04 PM
Those words changed a normal comment into something personal and hostile. This isn't forchan or something awful so I'm curious why you added the unnecessary insults.

Check posting histories.  Some people are only here to derail...