Quote from: Mistwell;740318I thought it was done by TSR?

If they would trademark Nazi (TM) then anything is fair game I guess. :rolleyes:

Quote from: estar;740321The OSR has grown so diverse, that no one clone, individual, or company is a gatekeepr, or block on the path from anybody with the drive to do what, within reason and the law,  they want with a classic edition.

Thus the OGL has done the job that it was supposed to do.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;740356If they would trademark Nazi (TM) then anything is fair game I guess. :rolleyes:

That was more or less Lucasfilm.

http://seankreynolds.livejournal.com/50079.html

An informative thread, even if a bit like a strip club - all that teasing ("I know those guys"; "Information I'd like to keep under my hat") and no score.

Quote from: JRT;740308They have gone after clones like Scrabulous but that appears to be more based on how close it was to the original (and the near-name match), since they dropped that lawsuit after the name was changed.

Seems purely a trade mark issue - Scrabulous looks like Scrabble. Similar mark for nearly-identical goods.

Quote from: estar;740321The rest just used their edition/clone of choice.

Personally I'm using OSRIC to run Rise of the Runelords right now. Just GM'd the 4th session tonight, and it's awesome.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;740356If they would trademark Nazi (TM) then anything is fair game I guess. :rolleyes:

That was forced on them by Lucas Films Ltd. Nazi (TM & C LFL 1984).

Quote from: P&P;740239(a) my bizarre and unaccountable failure to be an American

You sick bastard.

(MEGS being my favorite supers system, I have an opinion here and feel compelled to share it.)

Quote from: Endless Flight;740336I have a feeling you would have to change it up (the table, etc.) so much that it wouldn't quite be a "retro-clone" any longer.

Also, I'm sure others have thought about cloning it but perhaps they weren't sure they wanted to test Time Warner's lawyers.

Quote from: J Arcane;740339I don't think you'd have to actually change that much to make it unrecognizable for copyright purposes. Change the stat names if you're going to be cautious, and obviously do the power list from scratch. Even the table is solvable: switch the die type. Change out the 2d10 for a 2d6 or 2d8 or something, and all the numbers will have to be redone anyway, and that's the only part of it that's copyrightable.

I'd be inclined to make a system that is fundamentally similar to MEGS (exponential scale, stat matrix), but replaces the table with a numerical method of some sort.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;740491(MEGS being my favorite supers system, I have an opinion here and feel compelled to share it.)





I'd be inclined to make a system that is fundamentally similar to MEGS (exponential scale, stat matrix), but replaces the table with a numerical method of some sort.

Easy done. Target number = 11+ Opposing value.

Roll 2D10 (or adjust dice to separate from MEGs, say 3D6 or 2D8 etc) plus Acting Value

Equal or exceed the target number to then refer to the Results Table.

Which is when it gets a little trickier. Have played around with +1EV per 2 rolled over the target number. It doesn't work with the current game setup (Hero Points mess with probabilities or so I'm told - I'm not a numbers man)
but you're looking to put some distance between a clone and MEGs.

Example:

Power Fist (Dex:7 Str:12 Body:10) tackles a giant robot (Dex:5 Str:14 Body:11)

After winning initiative Power Fist (rolling 2D10) gets a roll of ... 17! The target number is 16 (Dex+11) and Power Fist gets 24. That's 8 points over the target number, so +4EV.

His Strength (12) is Effect Value, +4 to bring up to 16. 16-Resistance Value of Robot (Body 11) = 5 damage to the Robots current Body condition.

Maybe with 3D6 and the rule: two of same dice means you can add an extra D6, three of the same dice means you can add 2 extra dice (and if they come up the same you add an extra D6). This means Jimmy Olsen can't one shot Superman (theoretically if Jimmy rolled high enough he could take Supes down with Megs)

Also with Hero Points I'd suggest:

Increase AV,OV,EV,RV = 2HP per 1 point increase
Add another D6 to your 3D6 roll, roll dice, pick three and discard rest: cost 5 per extra D6
Last Ditch defence/Pushing abilities: 1 for the first point, 2 for the second point, 3 for the next point and so on (so to absorb 3 damage costs 6HP)

Separate HP from EXP (for character improvement)

Pushing costs the same as last ditch defence for points increase.

That's a 'top of my head just about to leave for work, take it or leave it and someone will probably denounce it as unworkable' suggestion.

I also came round to the 'two stats doing the same thing' that M&M 3e introduced, so Dex could be split like:

Spiderman Dex 13/8

First number is his opposing value. Second is his acting value both in and out of combat. This makes Spiderman harder to hit but doesn't make him a better fighter than Captain America, who might be Dex 10/12

Damn. I need to go to work now.

Curse you RPGSite! Youuuuuuu mmmmmadddddeeee meeeee laaaaattttteeee!!!

Quote from: JRT;740202To be fair, by releasing such a permissive license, WoTC basically did most of this to themselves.  I have to wonder if there will be a case study 20 years from now on this taught in business schools.

I fully agree that WotC threw itself on its own sword without anyone's help. I don't blame Paizo or the OSR for taking advantage of WotC's colossal stupidity. Their actions are good business. I also agree the OGL story will find its way into a business text at some point in the future.  

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;740205Except that publishing a retro-clone using the OGL explicitly *doesn't* fuck IP holders, because if it's done right it doesn't use any protected or reserved IP, it only uses what *isn't* protected IP and what has been expressly permitted per the license.  That's kinda the whole point.

Except that isn't what happened. Paizo fucked WotC. WotC would not be bleeding market share if not for the OGL.

The OGL gave away unbelievably precious IP that should have been protected and reserved. The stupidity of their decision to release the OGL is almost beyond comprehension. The D20 license made total sense, but not the OGL.

Quote from: P&P;740239a) K&KA is, as Spinachcat says, a foul and evil den of iniquity that's exactly like Tangency on the Big Purple.  People like Spinachcat should definitely stay here where it's nice and safe.

Den of iniquity? Please. That phrase deserves a modicum of respect. Basement of Bitches, at best.  

You are right however, I am wrong to compare K&KA with Tangency. It insults Tangency as they occasionally post some funny pictures.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;740491(MEGS being my favorite supers system, I have an opinion here and feel compelled to share it.)

I'd be inclined to make a system that is fundamentally similar to MEGS (exponential scale, stat matrix), but replaces the table with a numerical method of some sort.

If I was dropping the stat matrix, I may as well be making another game.

Hell, M&M3 basically is that game + effects-based chargen.

No, I'd rebuild the table for new die values/mechanic, possibly tweak the stat list so that one stat in 3 isn't essentially twice as useful, and drastically simplify the points cost system so that chargen is no longer so bloody complicated.

The table stays though. That shit's fun.

Quote from: Spinachcat;740520I fully agree that WotC threw itself on its own sword without anyone's help. I don't blame Paizo or the OSR for taking advantage of WotC's colossal stupidity.

The OGL gave away unbelievably precious IP that should have been protected and reserved. The stupidity of their decision to release the OGL is almost beyond comprehension. The D20 license made total sense, but not the OGL.

There was potential for the D&D IP to go away forever. As in, no game, no derivative games, and no more RPGs. When 0D&D was first released, it was in the rules, a license to create derivative material.

"Don't like what you see? Create your own, as you see fit."

With AD&D that was taken away.

When it looked like TSR was about to die, there was a very real danger that even AD&D would be buried, never to see the light of day again, and that roleplaying would be forgotten, a sidenote in the history of gaming, with the old boardgame manufacturers and their lame old games transplanting all the newly gained freedoms that D&D and RPGs brought to the table.

RPGs are indeed much smaller and are almost a sidenote compared to MMO's and online games, however their is still a loyal following for tabletop RPGs.

The open release of d20 and the OGL made this possible. Without it, tabletop RPGs would have been abandoned along time ago. The release of the OGL made all the players and Gms stakeholders, who got a say in how tabletop roleplaying games would develop. Paizo took it and ran with it. Why Hasbro with WOTC did not is a testament to their lack of understanding and comprehension when it comes to what really motivates gamers.

They should have used that IP giveaway to establish themselves as a leader in creating new content and fostering new content, but instead they crushed that, by trying to take the IP back in 2007 with the release of 4e instead.

Don't blame the gamers and the OGL for that bit of stupidity.

Quote from: GameDaddy;740540The open release of d20 and the OGL made this possible. Without it, tabletop RPGs would have been abandoned along time ago. The release of the OGL made all the players and Gms stakeholders, who got a say in how tabletop roleplaying games would develop. Paizo took it and ran with it. Why Hasbro with WOTC did not is a testament to their lack of understanding and comprehension when it comes to what really motivates gamers.

Naw, dude, I was there too and trust me - had D&D gone away when TSR died, most people in my neck of the woods would have shrugged and kept on gaming. AD&D 2E was pretty dead to most of the folk I gamed with by that point.

3rd Edition, for all its faults, did bring some of D&D's prominence back, and thanks to the OGL we have plenty retro-clone stuff to play with too. But the tabletop RPG hobby wouldn't have died if D&D went away - firstly, because the hobby isn't the industry, and secondly because the industry wouldn't have magically vanished, it'd have just had a big hole created ready for someone with a close-enough equivalent to roll in and take D&D's spot.

Quote from: Spinachcat;740520I fully agree that WotC threw itself on its own sword without anyone's help. I don't blame Paizo or the OSR...

Then we agree.

Quote from: SpinachcatExcept that isn't what happened. Paizo fucked WotC.

Maybe we're using "fucked" to mean different things.  To me, the statement "Paizo fucked WotC" implies that Paizo did something underhanded or wrong to WotC.  I don't think that's the case.  I think WotC offered a license, and Paizo agreed and used the license.

If, by "Paizo fucked WotC" you mean Paizo made legitimate use of the OGL that WotC offered and consequently became such a fierce competitor that it grabbed a bunch of market share, then yeah, I'd agree with that.

(I also think Paizo's success is not *just* from the OGL, but a combination of the benefits the OGL provides along with WotC making stupid decisions with the D&D brand and product line.  Even with the existence of the OGL, WotC could have retained control of the market; Pathfinder needn't have ever happened at all.)

If Wizards hadn't killed the magazines, Paizo might still just be a second-party contractor.

If Wizards hadn't 4e'd, Paizo never would've had a market for Pathfinder.

Everything Paizo is now is because Wizards created the environment and the motivation for them to take that space.

Had they removed head from rectum, Paizo would still just be some guys working for them, instead of the new competition.