Hi all,
I'm thinking of running a game of hardboiled PIs in 1950s LA. Systems that might do the trick that I know of are:
A Dirty World
Call of Cthulhu (with a bit of work)
Mean Streets
Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes
Unknown Armies (with a bit of work)
What system would you recommend using and why would you recommend it? It doesn't have to be one of the above, though if it is please still say why you'd use it.
The vibe is LA Confidential (the movie) or Chinatown, there will be more than one PI sometimes working on the same big case so Dirty Secrets wouldn't be appropriate (plus I want a game capable of doing ongoing stories, rather than tight one shots).
Suggestions? Questions?
I would take a look at the latest edition of Basic Role-Playing (http://catalog.chaosium.com/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=1256), or, perhaps, GURPS (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/). I would go to these systems because they are skill systems, and in an investigative game you're going to be using skills extensively. Also, both systems are combat dangerous and help reinforce the gritty, hard-boiled vibe you're going for in the game. Also, both systems are tool kit systems so that you can fold in other elements into the game as you like.
I also recommend Call of Cthulhu/BRP. All you'd really need to do with CoC is refrain from including the spells/monsters. You can keep sanity - it can come in handy for witnesses, criminals, etc. cracking up when faced with awful realizations - I think for those who are not hardened criminals or hard-boiled PCs, murdering someone, especially someone they know personally, could easily call for a SAN roll and potentially a (low) SAN loss (maybe 0/1d6 or something).
Few things should call for a PC san roll, but a particularly depressing realization (think Chinatown, The Galton Case by Ross Macdonald, even The Long Goodbye) might make for a SAN hit given the disillusioning effect. Rather than screaming and drooling I think a PC who is under the acute effects of a failed SAN roll might be more likely to do things like coldbloodedly shoot a citizen who is essentially guilty but not legally culpable, fly into a destructive rage, go on a drinking binge that may effectively sideline him for a crucial day or two in the midst of the investigation, etc.
Indefinite/long term insanities you'd want to choose carefully - they're unlikely to pick up anything too weird, but may develop paranoia, alcohol/drug addictions, gynophobia/androphobia depending on the relevant genders, etc. But you never know - a PC who screws up, gets caught and doped with LSD, almost gets eaten by a gang boss's pit bulls, etc. might come up with something further off the map.
You don't want to be sadistic here, and traditionally guys like Marlowe or Archer often do achieve at least a partial justice, and are tough guys. But they deal with some very awful people, and their faith in humanity gets shaken. They keep going; that's the element of heroism in this style of noir fiction (and in the standard CoC game as it's usually played) but over time it does seem to take its toll on their ability to live happy lives, or see the best in people.
Also : I know you cited the (great) movie version of LA Confidential; If you've read Ellroy's various LA novels, the various characters encounter all kinds of SAN-damaging stuff.
Oh, and I haven't read it in a long time as my copy is in storage (and I don't know how readily available it is in the used market) but the James Bond 007 game from victory might be an option - it has a lot of subsystems that cover situations you might want rules for in a PI game.
I'm about to start just such a game with some friends of mine... I'm using BRP/Call of Cthulhu... and might eventually cross over in to full blown horror, but at first it's not going to involve anything supernatural.
Not so much investigative ala Sherlock Holmes (read Chandler's essay about why he dislikes that sort of English parlor mystery)... more of the sort where the detective exists on the borderline between the light and dark... an Orpheus for hire, dipping into the underworld to accomplish his quests... but hopefully returning back to the surface without losing his soul.
It's less about having an encyclopedic knowledge of cigar ash... more about being able to move about and mingle with the criminal populace... keep an ear to the network... and outwit them at their own deadly games.
I've been reading my way through an omnibus of Chandler's short stories.
Mickey Spillane is also great for a seedier, and wilder, take on such things.
Whether or not you use the system, Mean Streets would be absolutely indispensable as a setting sourcebook.
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Quote from: RPGPundit;410638Whether or not you use the system, Mean Streets would be absolutely indispensable as a setting sourcebook.
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Did you write a review for MS? If so, could you post a link to it?
Thanks.
Savage Worlds with the Realms of Cthulhu supplement if you really want the gritty Combat and gritty Sanity rules (which I'd recommend). The Savage Worlds corebook is $10. It's worth just taking a look at for that cost. But it's also a skill based system and the thing was literally MADE for pulp noir games.
I've used SW for all sorts of different types of genres, so you wouldn't even need to change systems once the campaign ended, only the genre.
/suggestion
-=Grim=-
I know its kind of 'half an rpg' but I ran a fairly long Gangbusters game with a film noir setting.
I also like Daredevils (FGUI) and I ran Noir for a little while as well.
Of course Basic Role Playing is just as good, if not better, than any of those options and if you have it already....
sounds like Gumshoe-
http://www.pelgranepress.com/site/?page_id=672
Thanks all.
I have read Ellroy, I just thought the film a more likely common reference point.
Nice to see all the literary and cinematic references here, this site is particularly good for finding people who've a knowledge of genre beyond its depiction in rpgs.
I see this as being far more about talking to people and shaking the tree, than finding clues. I downloaded Mean Streets (I bought it ages back) and while the system's not me it does have a really good chapter on running this sort of game with a lot of really good half page or so scenario seeds (enough most of them that I could run them as is with very little further prep).
I actually own Realms of Cthulhu, it hadn't even occurred to me to look at that for this. I must do so. That said, I want a more hardboiled feel than two fisted action, but if I remember rightly RoC tones down the pulp to a degree.
Gangbusters is a great game, I've run it before and love it. One of the players didn't seem to take to it though or frankly I would just use that. Still, an underappreciated classic. Daredevils is a bit complex for my personal tastes (Gumshoe tends not to excite me either, though it's a perfectly fair suggestion).
Anyway, thanks all and Cole, good to see another fan of the genre out there.
Quote from: D-503;410732I see this as being far more about talking to people and shaking the tree, than finding clues.
This is part of why I suggested BRP/CoC over Gumshoe/Trail of Cthulhu - I think the hardboiled style is often more about clues "finding the characters" - informants coming forward rather than finding incriminating evidence, etc; and Gumshoe is somewhat simplistic as regards parts of the game other than evidence gathering. Having said this, though, it is a good system and worth checking out one or another game that uses it just for procedure. However I feel like beyond the base mechanics the games (except Fear Itself which I haven't seen and can't comment on) don't seem to offer a ton of stuff to use beyond their native settings, of which Trail is probably the least outre.
I'd run this with Genre Diversion 3 and the Mean Streets and Miami Nights campaign supplements, but BRP would be my second choice most definitely.
I can't think of anything better than MSPE, which you mentioned in your original post. It's perfect.
To be honest and hopefully helpful, a hardboiled detective is a matter of roleplaying. The player either plays his as a HBD or he doesn't, the system is largely irrelevant as to whether or not you get a HBD atmosphere.
Quote from: Cylonophile;410885To be honest and hopefully helpful, a hardboiled detective is a matter of roleplaying. The player either plays his as a HBD or he doesn't, the system is largely irrelevant as to whether or not you get a HBD atmosphere.
Agreed, it's more about attitude than anything... maybe some rules for intimidation and bluffing... and a general knowledge of the local criminal networks.
Quote from: stu2000;410861I can't think of anything better than MSPE, which you mentioned in your original post. It's perfect.
Sadly I sold it recently figuring I'd never use it.
I'll probably use CoC, incorporating my intimidation rules (based on a post of Kyle's actually, I'll set them out later). That's worked well in the past.
Thanks for all the comments, one of the players said he'd read a couple of Sam Spades or hire a movie, which suggests that the atmosphere should be ok and as noted that is the key thing.
Quote from: Cylonophile;410885To be honest and hopefully helpful, a hardboiled detective is a matter of roleplaying. The player either plays his as a HBD or he doesn't, the system is largely irrelevant as to whether or not you get a HBD atmosphere.
Actually, most "Hardboiled detectives" have little to any personality, particularly in the classic pulp stories (the famous "detective with no name" springs to mind). You know almost nothing about them, they rarely if ever grow or change in any way.
So what makes it a detective story is actually everything going on AROUND the detective. Its the ambiance, the gruesome crime, the knowledge of mob life, all the sexy and lurid details of the criminal underworld.
So really what you need is something that is a good sourcebook of information about that sort of thing, because a Detective campaign will have little if anything to do with how people play their detectives (which could easily have less personality than your typical dungeon-crawl D&D character) but how well the GM creates the WORLD of noir/pulp detective stories.
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