Quote from: flyingmiceThanks, Varaj. That makes a lot of sense. For someone used to the specific sub-genre, you have a background is stories and novels that will feed you ideas, but like roleplaying, Hard SF is a niche of a niche, and the intersection of those two sets would be rather small. Your ideas are good -  provide adventure seeds, spark ideas, show examples of what can be done. Thanks!

-mice

I'm starting a THS game tonight, just character generation.  It will be a new system/setting for just about everybody.  I plan on pulling story ideas from spy games, SpyCraft and the like.
I plan on starting with a canned module for THS (review here) and keeping the investigation and intrigue going.  It will be a very combat light game.
If anybody has any favorite SpyCraft modules feel free to speak up.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstIt might be.  I mean, many gamers are of a Star Trek: TNG, Star Wars, or Babylon 5 sort of generation.  Perhaps they're looking for familiar handholds and aren't finding them.  I think "soft-science" shows and movies have had a bit easier time finding wider audiences, and perhaps folks are just tending to gravitate towards what they know.

But, in brief, I don't know.  I'd love to hear any other theories, contentions, angles that are out there.

Well, License vs Original Setting faces a number of challenges just as you pointed out Zachary. The "What do I do" is defined and has an audience in successful sci-fi settings. I happen to be one of the few who think that some sci-fi settings make better stories than rpg settings. Star Trek is very much this. The inconsistancies make it very difficult to quantify the setting under a rigid rules set. I have proposed a diceless system for it on other boards and I think it is the closest you can come to an RPG system for that setting. I have also heard how you "Just need the right group". This is weak simply because you can say that about any game. Star Trek just has too many plot devices and system holes to be viable in a rigid system. Just my opinion though.

Now, Star Wars is a different story. This is essentially fantasy with a sci-fi dress on. It is easily quantifiable since it is very B&W both in tech and plot. There is a stream of plot that makes it adaptable to an RPG.

The problem comes in when you get non-licensed settings. Make them detailed and folks gig you for having to read a dictionary to understand the setting. Write a light and airy/easily read book and you aren't giving them the substance they need to run. Striking that middle ground is the tough part. I think Traveller did this but I think they also relied on predefined concepts from masters like Niven and Asimov. Today, you have many different breeds of sci-fi and you almost need to drop your book into one of them to make it successful. Military sci-fi appeal to some, world explorer sci-fi to others and you better believe you will get smacked for by the fans of the genre you did not cover.

Interesting discussion.

Bill

Hi Bill!

You have some excellent poits, as always. Your thoughts on Trek make a lot of sense. I see lots and lots of Trek Sim - as in on-line freeform RPing, not Forge Sim - games out there, many of them long running. I've never had any urge to run a Trek RP game for the very reasons you cite.

As for the multiplicity of SF sub-genres, that's why I've written more than one SF game setting. Some people like one, some another.

Glad to see you here! I'm enjoying the discussion too!

-mice

Quote from: flyingmiceGlad to see you here! I'm enjoying the discussion too!

-mice

I know--it's like all my favorite folks have decided to sign up.  We must all have gotten the same vibe or impulse or somesuch.

I would agree the RPG SF market seems pretty diversified.  You have an IP like Starship Troopers, which naturally gears towards Mil. SF.  However, you still have your Hard SF folks, and a crazy range of subgenres inbetween.

Now, as far as the multiplicity of genres and whatnot, is there any game out there that you could present as a unifier that could do any&all of these different sub-genres tolerably well?  Would there even be any point in attempting such a "unifier"?  We have T5 on the horizon for next year, where's that going to fit in?

And, Bill, do you see Fading Suns also, like Star Wars, as a fantasy with a thin coat of SF applied?  I believe I've always pictured it as such.  However, I've also found it one of the easier games out there in terms of finding easy plot footholds and adventure ideas.

Quote from: flyingmiceHi Bill!

You have some excellent poits, as always. Your thoughts on Trek make a lot of sense. I see lots and lots of Trek Sim - as in on-line freeform RPing, not Forge Sim - games out there, many of them long running. I've never had any urge to run a Trek RP game for the very reasons you cite.

As for the multiplicity of SF sub-genres, that's why I've written more than one SF game setting. Some people like one, some another.

Glad to see you here! I'm enjoying the discussion too!

-mice

Clash,
I am also looking at more sci-fi games beyond Nebuleon. I have Future Skein, a post apoc Earth game, Cyber Skein, the pre-apoc version of Future Skein that is cyber-not-punk set on the moon and another one called Coloni about a colony ship that arrives in sections and your character wake up 300 years after the colony has started. All of these will be able to exist in the Nebuleon universe but will definitely be there own games. Unfortunately, (or maybe it is a good thing) Squirrel Attack! is selling like nuts (pun intended) through distribution and off the site. Good for Hinterwelt but I want to write some sci-fi!

O.k. as for ST, well, a lot of what I see as successful "games" usually is more about successful story telling. Don't get me wrong, that is great too but there comes a point where you cease to RP as a system and move into RP as a story. Nothing wrong there but you get a lot of folks who are fervent about Decipher Trek or LUG Trek (I won and have played both) and they simply do not work as a RP system. Phasers are too powerful and all the tech makes a the serious tactical player a nightmare to the story.

That said, I am a huge Trek fan. Just have not found the right Trek game for me...yet.

Bill

Quote from: Zachary The FirstAnd, Bill, do you see Fading Suns also, like Star Wars, as a fantasy with a thin coat of SF applied?  I believe I've always pictured it as such.  However, I've also found it one of the easier games out there in terms of finding easy plot footholds and adventure ideas.

Definitely. To me, and others may have a different view, Fading Suns is very much along those lines. The thing that has always puzzled me is why it had not done better, commercially. I did not like it but that is me. I have some real particular tastes for my sci-fi. The whole precept seemed...too mystical. However, I thought it was a well put together book and game and thought it would have dominated the market.

As for Grand Unification Game...I do nto know if it would serve a purpose. You have a number of these type of games/systems out their now but making a too generic game can lead to loosing the market focus you need to make a game sell. Also, I dare say, a grossly generic game would loos some of its appeal. System wise I do not believe this would be a problem. Setting wise, definitely. The only way (and it is what I am pursuing with HinterWelt) is to make a series of core rules using the same system. Then, if people want, they can play a cyber dude from this setting and an alien bog dweller from that setting and they all live in happy bliss under one system. One setting can be inferred meaining you have a separate book for the setting but it is not mentioned in the others, just assumed that it is part of the original setting. Is that clear? I probabaly need more/less coffee.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltIs that clear? I probabaly need more/less coffee.

Bill

Crystalline.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI don't think I'd find a truly "hard" scifi game all that interesting. I'm trying to think of hard scifi novels...off the top of my head, Red Mars, Green Mars, and Blue Mars seem to qualify, even if Robinson really accelerated the terraforming process. An interesting setting for a book, not so interesting for a game. I can't think of any others right off the top of my head.

2300's rules were, in my opinion, not that fun. The setting is what made the game.

Niven's Ringworld?

Quote from: HinterWeltClash,
I am also looking at more sci-fi games beyond Nebuleon. I have Future Skein, a post apoc Earth game, Cyber Skein, the pre-apoc version of Future Skein that is cyber-not-punk set on the moon and another one called Coloni about a colony ship that arrives in sections and your character wake up 300 years after the colony has started. All of these will be able to exist in the Nebuleon universe but will definitely be there own games. Unfortunately, (or maybe it is a good thing) Squirrel Attack! is selling like nuts (pun intended) through distribution and off the site. Good for Hinterwelt but I want to write some sci-fi!
Bill

Bill, you know me, i want those Sci-fi game yesterday!:D

Man from what you have talked about Cyber Skein & Future Skein (I love that cover) I can't wait to see those. Of course i'm always a sucker for good Sci-Fi. Which reminds me I need to get a copy of Cold Space @ somepoint.

Quote from: HinterWeltAlso, I dare say, a grossly generic game would loos some of its appeal. System wise I do not believe this would be a problem. Setting wise, definitely. The only way (and it is what I am pursuing with HinterWelt) is to make a series of core rules using the same system. Then, if people want, they can play a cyber dude from this setting and an alien bog dweller from that setting and they all live in happy bliss under one system. One setting can be inferred meaining you have a separate book for the setting but it is not mentioned in the others, just assumed that it is part of the original setting. Is that clear? I probabaly need more/less coffee.

Bill

Also what we are doing with the StarCluster system & setting. Book of Jalan and Sweet Chariot are both very different settings within the greater cluster setting - the upcoming Gkorianna and Far Shore will also be set in the cluster, but these all can be played without any reference to the rest of the Cluster, if you prefer. It's an idea that works, and gives you a lot of flexibility as a GM.

BTW, I can't wait to see Cyber Skein and Future Skein!

-mice

Quote from: Zachary The FirstI know--it's like all my favorite folks have decided to sign up. We must all have gotten the same vibe or impulse or somesuch.

I would agree the RPG SF market seems pretty diversified. You have an IP like Starship Troopers, which naturally gears towards Mil. SF. However, you still have your Hard SF folks, and a crazy range of subgenres inbetween.

Now, as far as the multiplicity of genres and whatnot, is there any game out there that you could present as a unifier that could do any&all of these different sub-genres tolerably well? Would there even be any point in attempting such a "unifier"? We have T5 on the horizon for next year, where's that going to fit in?

Nope- at least as far as Setting goes. It's the setting that pretty much defines the genre. System is far less important. Like Bill, We've been building up a variety of settings within the Cluster as well as the new Cold Space/FTL Now setting. That's the only way I know to work a cross genre SF game.

-mice

Well I paged through and read a little of Cold Space last night and I'm very impressed with it. It looks like the layout has improved greatly over SC2 and the concpt just rocks. Good stuff.

Quote from: Vermicious KnidNiven's Ringworld?

I don't think of Niven's Ringworld as being truly "hard" scifi. I love those books, though.

Quote from: McrowWell I paged through and read a little of Cold Space last night and I'm very impressed with it. It looks like the layout has improved greatly over SC2 and the concpt just rocks. Good stuff.

Thanks, Michael! We're learning! Glad to hear you're enjoying it!

-mice

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI don't think of Niven's Ringworld as being truly "hard" scifi. I love those books, though.

The concept of "Hard" in SF has changed over the years. Niven used to be considered Hard, because he paid a lot of attention to the science in his SF. He wrote Neutron Star after seing a science article by Asimov on the tidal effects of a neutron star, which gave him the central concept. To get to the neutron star, however, Beowulf Schaeffer used a ship made of 'unobtainium' using an FTL drive, which makes this not-Hard by today's definition.

-mice