Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121145But that's because of what we DO know about space travel and space in general, I don't expect a discovery that allows ships to use black matter as if it were air/water. But hey, we know it does exist because we see it's effects, so who's to say it won't be possible to have spaceships that act like planes?

It's kind of unrelated, but one of the more entertaining bits of reverse justification I've seen is the attempt to explain why the crew of so many spaceships in film and TV bend at the knees as their ship turns, hear the sound of explosions in space, and seem to feel shockwaves from near misses. The real reason obviously has nothing to do with science, and everything to with adopting the elements from more familiar forms of travel. But that's just a form of conveying information to the audience using familiar metaphors, and the actual crews of actual spaceships will have even more demanding information needs than the audience of mass media.

We have a lot of senses, so if we develop technologies to turn every square inch of a ship into a touch-sensitive display screen, to emit and absorb everything from liquid and garbage to odors, and so on, why not use them? An enormous amount of information can be conveyed non-verbally and non-visually. It won't resemble the cinematic effects, of course. It obviously makes no sense to actually throw the crew around like dolls, and even the lesser effects are likely to be coded like a learned language instead of attempts to truly replicate travel through a medium like air. But it's a highly plausible, in fact almost certain, that something along those lines will be developed. Or more properly, further developed, since we do have existing examples -- a trivial one I've always found very intriguing is how supermarkets started to use a thunder-like sound to signal that the produce is about to be sprayed with water. Without any training, we learn what it means quickly and intuitively.

Quote from: Pat;1121150It's kind of unrelated, but one of the more entertaining bits of reverse justification I've seen is the attempt to explain why the crew of so many spaceships in film and TV bend at the knees as their ship turns, hear the sound of explosions in space, and seem to feel shockwaves from near misses. The real reason obviously has nothing to do with science, and everything to with adopting the elements from more familiar forms of travel. But that's just a form of conveying information to the audience using familiar metaphors, and the actual crews of actual spaceships will have even more demanding information needs than the audience of mass media.

We have a lot of senses, so if we develop technologies to turn every square inch of a ship into a touch-sensitive display screen, to emit and absorb everything from liquid and garbage to odors, and so on, why not use them? An enormous amount of information can be conveyed non-verbally and non-visually. It won't resemble the cinematic effects, of course. It obviously makes no sense to actually throw the crew around like dolls, and even the lesser effects are likely to be coded like a learned language instead of attempts to truly replicate travel through a medium like air. But it's a highly plausible, in fact almost certain, that something along those lines will be developed. Or more properly, further developed, since we do have existing examples -- a trivial one I've always found very intriguing is how supermarkets started to use a thunder-like sound to signal that the produce is about to be sprayed with water. Without any training, we learn what it means quickly and intuitively.

Interesting bit that could add a lot of flavor to a setting tho. Have the spaceship crew trained to understand the signals from the ship without the need of something like written language. Colors and smells for instance, especially smell, we remember it for longer, so have the ship communicate with a combination of color/scent. Different time duration or intensity could have a meaning too. Vibrations through it's skin as a secondary system in case the other is down.

Quote from: jeff37923;1121120Instead of "speed", you should be using the term "thrust", and even then Star Frontiers is wrong. Ion drives measure thrust and acceleration in cm/sec of acceleration, but that can be kept up for long periods of time. Atomic engines (NERVA) can provide high thrust, but at the expenditure of a lot of reaction mass which limits the time which they can be used.

Ion drives do not convert matter to energy, except in a poorly written game. That is a Gross Conceptual Error.

Here, go learn you something about the subject.

1. Ion drives now are low acceleration, if given enough energy to work with, then they could go much faster (after many many redesigns)

2. If mass is converted to energy and that energy powers more advanced ion drives, then effectively they convert mass into energy.

Why be the nerd that says things are impossible when you could be the bigger nerd that figures how things are possible?

Quote from: Rhedyn;1121155Why be the nerd that says things are impossible when you could be the bigger nerd that figures how things are possible?

First, please note that I didn't say that anything was impossible.

Second, I am busting Omega's chops because of his poor use of terminology which demonstrates his lack of understanding of the subject he is talking about. This is a personal pet peev of mine.

Third, in science fiction, the suspension of disbelief is much more important than in fantasy - so you must have either the trappings of science/engineering (science fantasy - Star Wars or Star Trek) or you must deal with science/technologies that are probable or at least possible (science fiction - The Martian or The Expanse). If I pulled some handwavium out of my ass to explain a high thrust ion drive capable of producing 1 G of acceleration, I'd be really stretching the suspension of disbelief far outside of the envelope for science fiction and into the realm of science fantasy. Sometimes it isn't a matter of being the bigger nerd or being the more correct nerd, it is knowing the subject matter well enough to craft a believable setting for a plausible version of the technology to exist (which doesn't snap the Players or Readers disbelief suspenders).

Quote from: Omega;1121069If I recall right it takes about 22 hours to accelerate to jump and then 22 hours to decelerate at destination. Jump speed being 1% speed of light, which at 1g acceleration takes about 22 hours.

Interesting. How long do jumps take? Are they a fixed duration, like Traveller, or is the duration of the jump based on distance?
Are there two types of engines (like Traveller's jump and maneuver) or just one engine for both?
When a ship jumps, is it in "hyperspace" or realspace?

I won't defend Star Frontiers as hard sci-fi, but hot damn, I've never encountered a space RPG with more fun to roleplay alien races. They're totally pulp sci-fi creations, but they really work awesome at the game table. I'm not exactly sure why. They are certainly quite different than humans, but still able to use our tech, and the one-dimensional racial personalities made it easy for new players to jump into them.

In talking about RPG systems for hard sci-fi, has anyone used STAR SIEGE from Troll Lords? AKA, the toolkit compatible with Castles & Crusades. I wasn't a big fan when it came out, but it seemed to have LOTS of knobs and dials to create your own specific setting hardness.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1121189I won't defend Star Frontiers as hard sci-fi, but hot damn, I've never encountered a space RPG with more fun to roleplay alien races. They're totally pulp sci-fi creations, but they really work awesome at the game table. I'm not exactly sure why. They are certainly quite different than humans, but still able to use our tech, and the one-dimensional racial personalities made it easy for new players to jump into them.

In talking about RPG systems for hard sci-fi, has anyone used STAR SIEGE from Troll Lords? AKA, the toolkit compatible with Castles & Crusades. I wasn't a big fan when it came out, but it seemed to have LOTS of knobs and dials to create your own specific setting hardness.

Pulp Sci-Fi is the best kind of Sci-Fi to play IMHO. Well honestly anything Pulp is the same thing. As long as you're not insisting that Pulp can only be in the 20's-30's.

Pulp sci-fi may be fun for people, but the OP was specifically asking for help with hard sci-fi.

Quote from: jeff37923;1121159First, please note that I didn't say that anything was impossible.

Second, I am busting Omega's chops because of his poor use of terminology which demonstrates his lack of understanding of the subject he is talking about. This is a personal pet peev of mine.

Third, in science fiction, the suspension of disbelief is much more important than in fantasy - so you must have either the trappings of science/engineering (science fantasy - Star Wars or Star Trek) or you must deal with science/technologies that are probable or at least possible (science fiction - The Martian or The Expanse). If I pulled some handwavium out of my ass to explain a high thrust ion drive capable of producing 1 G of acceleration, I'd be really stretching the suspension of disbelief far outside of the envelope for science fiction and into the realm of science fantasy. Sometimes it isn't a matter of being the bigger nerd or being the more correct nerd, it is knowing the subject matter well enough to craft a believable setting for a plausible version of the technology to exist (which doesn't snap the Players or Readers disbelief suspenders).

Dude, you are busting his chops about Star Frontiers not being hard sci-fi, and you list The Expanse as a counter-example?  Talk about losing my suspension of disbelief...

Quote from: Eirikrautha;1121316Dude, you are busting his chops about Star Frontiers not being hard sci-fi, and you list The Expanse as a counter-example?  Talk about losing my suspension of disbelief...

OK, why is my counter-example wrong?

For some, the use of a d100 skill die mechanic makes sci-fi RPGing hard. See High Colonies at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/columbiagames/high-colonies

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1121347For some, the use of a d100 skill die mechanic makes sci-fi RPGing hard. See High Colonies at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/columbiagames/high-colonies

I have no idea why any particular game mechanic would make someone consider a setting to be hard sci-fi as that should be entirely a function of the setting, not the game rules. You could certainly have an entirely narrative system and still have a very hard sci-fi setting.

Quote from: Morlock;1120208Generally speaking, everything I want to do falls into the "Very Hard SF" or harder categories.

Morlock, give us 3 movies or TV shows that exemplify the tone/feel you want for your campaign.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1121376Morlock, give us 3 movies or TV shows that exemplify the tone/feel you want for your campaign.

Sorry for the belated reply. Got really busy with RL stuff.

K, first is 2001: A Space Odyssey. Well, that SETTING, if you removed the alien stuff; not looking to tell the kind of stories that movie told.

The Martian; not so much the story, as how hard Weir tried to get the science right. Only flub I can think of is Mars' atmosphere isn't dense enough for the storm that marooned Watney.

Sans the FTL, I guess Battlestar Galactica reboot wasn't too bad.

I mean, I'm not exactly spoiled for choice here. The Expanse isn't all that bad, considering what we have to work with; mass media SF is really, really, really fuckin squishy.

But really I'm looking for something that can do a lot of different tones and feels, within the framework of the hard sci-fi genre. A toolkit for making settings and campaigns.

Quote from: jeff37923;1121120Instead of "speed", you should be using the term "thrust", and even then Star Frontiers is wrong. Ion drives measure thrust and acceleration in cm/sec of acceleration, but that can be kept up for long periods of time. Atomic engines (NERVA) can provide high thrust, but at the expenditure of a lot of reaction mass which limits the time which they can be used.

Ion drives do not convert matter to energy, except in a poorly written game. That is a Gross Conceptual Error.

Here, go learn you something about the subject.

That's a great site. One thing I would love to see is a chapter on ships, shipbuilding, propulsion, etc., from someone really knowledgeable about the near- and middle-future of space flight and space propulsion, and with a keen futurist's eye (i.e., good judgement) as to a timeline of roughly when these things will be spinning off from design spaces into outer space. I read that stuff and it's all Greek to me. I'd love to have someone break it down with an appreciation of what an RPG designer/GM needs to know. Something intended for hard SF designers, where FTL and Albucierrewtfhowuspellit bubbles and folding space are off the table ("sure, it's theoretically possible, if you don't mind burning half the mass in the galaxy and dying on the way there"), where near term is ion drives, aerospikes, NERVA, long term is fusion, then antimatter engines, maybe, and half of C (or whatever) is probably all we're ever gonna get.

I mean, sure, I can use the Traveller tables, or the tables from Game X, or whatever, but I want something that actually reflects real science, hard-nosed futurism, and cutting edge science.