I understand it's a full year off yet.

-> Do we know any details? Rules-wise? Tone-wise? Setting-wise (Kalamar, right?)? Changes to 4th ed.-wise? (I know it won't be d20.)

-> If it's a full year off yet, well, what do Kenzer ever DO with their time? Besides the comic, I mean.

No offense, I'm just looking for a relief to post-4E trauma this coming summer.

I check in at the Kenzer forums periodically and it sure seems to me that those dudes are playing very close to the vest.

I wouldn't expect to see it before 2010.  They took a very long developing A&8 and it's a smaller game than HM.  Apparently it will be based off of A&8's system and will be more serious in tone than HM4 is.  And Kalamar  (yawn...) will be it's official setting. That's all I've heard so far.  Unless they manage to make it much, much easier to play than HM4 is, I won't be interested.

Your future lies with Aces & Eights, my friend!

If they give old-school fantasy the Aces & Eights treatment, I might actually be interested. I don't need another dude's houserules for 1E AD&D - the best way to run 1E AD&D is to use your own houserules, like everyone else did back in the day.

The thing that caught my attention was that the various posts I saw about HM 5e by Kenzer et al was how so many of them emphasized that the satire and parody would be toned way, way down, if not eliminated. It's what made me lose interest in the game. Yeah, I'll look at it if/when it comes out, but the parody and satire were precisely what differentiated the game not just from AD&D, but from most other RPGs in general. Without it, it'll be tough to come up with a fantasy RPG that is fresh and different enough to catch my attention. Could happen, but... :shrug:

Quote from: mhensleyAnd Kalamar  (yawn...) will be it's official setting. .

Woohoo! I really like Kalamar and have almost every sourcebook (including Divine Masters) and adventure.

Hackmaster was really a combination of four different qualities:

1. An extremely direct imitation of most of the rules of AD&D 1e.

2. A humorous parody of D&D, that made fun of both the game, the ideas some people had of the game, of the way some people took D&D as something waaay too seriously, and an intentionally hyperbolic exaggeration of some of the rules and suggestions virtually NO one actually used in AD&D, because they made the game unplayable (like the idea that players were explicitly forbidden from reading the DM Guide, or DMs were explicitly forbidden from altering any of the written rules).

3. A handful of mostly bothersome original mechanics, many of them inspired by the idea that Hackmaster should be a very strict "gamist" game in the mold of what Ron Edwards imagined the real D&D to be in his sickest dreams, ie. a GM vs. Players brawl.

4. A tone, paradoxical with #2 above, that the parts of these rules which were meant to pit GM vs. Player were NOT part of the joke, and were a deadly-serious and vital part of the game.

The paradox inherent in numbers 2 and 4 meant that there were basically two very different groups of people playing Hackmaster: the majority of whom I imagine were people who were looking to recreate their old AD&D fun in a lighthearted tone, and a very vocal minority that saw Hackmaster as some kind of GNS-gamist masterpiece and resented the "funny bits" and being reminded that the game was inspired by D&D.

Unfortunately, Kenzer has already stated that the new edition will completely eliminate points 1 & 2 (which are to me the things that made HM both meaningful and successful), as the new edition will neither be based on AD&D in any way and will not be humourous.  So instead what we'll be left with is a totally unrelated Gamist GM vs. Player competition game that takes itself completely seriously and happens to have the same name as the old Hackmaster.

I predict that it'll suck ass, and sell miserably badly.

RPGPundit

Toning down humor doesn't mean removing it entirely, not unless we're down with the secret and much dreaded knee-jerk society. WotC is responsible for the really silly shit in Hackmaster. The Kenzer crew favors subtle dark humor and Gary Speak to make the book fun to read and the game fun to play. Even without the silly shit like Gummy-Bear Golems the game will still be funny, especially when you realize that most of the really good humor comes from our tables, not some WotC think tank.

The AD&D system is gone, but they did what they could and wanted with the system and now they're moving on. HM5e will still be funny, crazy, and uber deadly. I can't wait.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: GrimJestaToning down humor doesn't mean removing it entirely, not unless we're down with the secret and much dreaded knee-jerk society. WotC is responsible for the really silly shit in Hackmaster. The Kenzer crew favors subtle dark humor and Gary Speak to make the book fun to read and the game fun to play. Even without the silly shit like Gummy-Bear Golems the game will still be funny, especially when you realize that most of the really good humor comes from our tables, not some WotC think tank.

The AD&D system is gone, but they did what they could and wanted with the system and now they're moving on. HM5e will still be funny, crazy, and uber deadly. I can't wait.

-=Grim=-

I'm going by what Kenzer guys, like Jolly and Kenzer himself (especially) have emphasized - the removal of the parody and satire. While I imagine they may leave in some of the Gary-speak, the fact that I saw so many posts by them assuring those who hate the satire and parody that those elements would be greatly reduced (at least) doesn't make it unreasonable to assume it won't be a particularly funny game. I certainly hope you're right, and the game comes out as a pretty good approximation of what they play in the comic, which was the entire point of the game in the first place. But I thought it was like that already. :shrug: I'll wait and see. I have pretty much everything for HM4e, so I'm good either way. I'm just hoping to see them do Temple of Horrendous Doom...they haven't done many original modules at all; even the various recent pdf adventures from Kenzer have been "hacked" versions of pretty obscure TSR modules.

Quote from: WarthurIf they give old-school fantasy the Aces & Eights treatment, I might actually be interested. I don't need another dude's houserules for 1E AD&D - the best way to run 1E AD&D is to use your own houserules, like everyone else did back in the day.

Yeah, that would be awesome.  A&8s while I haven't played, looks fan=freakin-tastic, and would jump at the chance to play.

I loved HM, but the system was too wonky.  Kalamar doesn't excite me as much as Garweeze Wurld.

Let me be one of the ones to say the humor and satire was what got me INTO KODT, and Hackmaster by extension.

Making Hackmaster SERIOUS would remove all the reason for its existance.

Now, I agree, getting rid of Gymmi Bear Golems, sure.  But the crazy Gygax inspired Humor was awesome.  And I LOVED the Hacklopedias.

And Knights Errant may be the most brilliant class ever, in that it takes a common gaming trope (the rules lawyering apologist with the mind-bendingly bizarre application of gamer logic) and made the damn thing a CLASS with ABILITIES.  I loved it.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralLet me be one of the ones to say the humor and satire was what got me INTO KODT, and Hackmaster by extension.

Making Hackmaster SERIOUS would remove all the reason for its existance.

Agreed. Take away the parody and satire, and you have...AD&D1e. If it's a new system for 5e, it'll still have to be pretty durned special to distinguish itself from other bog-standard fantasy RPGs (as I mentioned above).

Quote from: HackmastergeneralNow, I agree, getting rid of Gymmi Bear Golems, sure.  But the crazy Gygax inspired Humor was awesome.  And I LOVED the Hacklopedias.

I loved the Hacklopedias, too, and bought them as they were released, so I only spent $20/month, which didn't feel like such a bite out of my wallet. Thing is, I liked the Hacklopedias because of all the bizarre and goofy monsters, such as the Gummi Bear Golems. They added to the fun.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralAnd Knights Errant may be the most brilliant class ever, in that it takes a common gaming trope (the rules lawyering apologist with the mind-bendingly bizarre application of gamer logic) and made the damn thing a CLASS with ABILITIES.  I loved it.

I'm ambivalent about the Knight Errant. While what you say is correct, and the concept is amusing and goes right along with the whole HackMaster attitude, I can't imagine the class being viable for any length of time in play. Since I'm sure other players would eventually want to brain the KE's player eventually, no matter how much they wanted to immerse themselves in the game. Still, I'm glad it's there, and could see it being used for one-shots and HM demo games.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonAgreed. Take away the parody and satire, and you have...AD&D1e. If it's a new system for 5e, it'll still have to be pretty durned special to distinguish itself from other bog-standard fantasy RPGs (as I mentioned above).

I think Kenzer are capable of doing so - Aces & Eights is miles beyond any other Western RPG I've seen (granted, there aren't many, but Deadlands and Boot Hill are pretty fine efforts). On the other hand, I can see how dropping the comedy angle would make it difficult to see such a game as "Hackmaster" - after all, it's supposed to be the RPG the characters in KODT play, satire would appear to be central to the concept. It'd be better to just give the thing a different title, so that it wouldn't carry the baggage the Hackmaster name brings with it. Archmages & Elves, maybe?

Let's just be careful that we don't once again allow Pundit's repurposing of the facts to fit his narrative to misread what's going on here.  From my understanding, they are going to tone down some of the more blatant parody for 5th edition, not excise all humour altogether.  If you read Aces & Eights, though it is written straight-up, the dark, tough humour of the KenzerCo crew is infused throughout and adds real character to the game.  I suspect this is the same approach they will take with 5th edition.