Gygax on Diceless

James McMurray · February 07, 2007, 12:35:41 PM

From Knights & Knaves, Gygax's take on what makes a real roleplaying game.

QuoteIF IT DOESN'T USE DICE IT'S NOT AN RPG
"Storytelling" games are not RPGs. Neither are "diceless" games.
An RPG creates a story, does not follow a script. That's a play, possibly improv theater. In a real RPG the GM develops a backstory and plot, sets the scenes, and then the PCs interact with those and by their actions create the actual tale, the events and conclusion of which are indeterminate until that occurs.

As in real life, chance and random occurrances must be a part of an RPG adventure. As a matter of fact you and I do not know what will happen in the next minute. As is oft quoted, "There's many a slip between cup and lip." to ignore random events, not allow chance into play, is to consign the game to predestination. For example, the best golfer might be stung by a bee at the moment he is about to make an easy putt, thus miss it. Who knows when a tire will blow out? Can anyone predict with certainty that a sudden gust of wind won't blow an obstructing object onto a windshield? throw off the course of a missile?

Given this combined with prior discussions along the lines of "if you did it different than Gygax, you're not an RPG" does this mean that Amber, Nobilis, and others aren't really RPGs? If so, they get an awful lot of discussion at RPG sites (Amber here, Nobilis at RPG.net). If not, how do we reconcile the two criteria for inclusion into RPGdom?

jrients · February 07, 2007, 12:39:41 PM

I like large parts of Gygax's body of work. I think his DMG is one of the best books ever produced by the hobby. I consider adventure B2 The Keep on the Borderlands to be the archetypal dungeon.

But Gary Gygax is also wrong sometimes. IMHO anyone who thinks everything he has said or written is golden hasn't read enough Gygax to be able to form an objective opinion.

Gabriel · February 07, 2007, 01:01:14 PM

Quote from: James McMurrayGiven this combined with prior discussions along the lines of "if you did it different than Gygax, you're not an RPG" does this mean that Amber, Nobilis, and others aren't really RPGs?

I personally don't consider Amber a RPG. It's something related, but it isn't a RPG.

blakkie · February 07, 2007, 01:14:06 PM

QuoteAs is oft quoted, "There's many a slip between cup and lip." to ignore random events, not allow chance into play, is to consign the game to predestination.

LOL, yes well he seems to have completely forgotten about the one random event generator still left at the table. Damn humans and their illogical emotions and whimsical choices always mucking shit up. People just can't always fully understand and predict with 100% accuracy the actions of another person. That is pretty much what passes for random.

P.S. I'm with Jeff. He's got interesting things to say, and usually at least marginally entertaining, but I don't consider him to have anything approaching infalability on RPGs. Especially given his propesities to ham it up and overstate.

Consonant Dude · February 07, 2007, 01:15:01 PM

Quote from: jrientsI like large parts of Gygax's body of work. I think his DMG is one of the best books ever produced by the hobby. I consider adventure B2 The Keep on the Borderlands to be the archetypal dungeon.

But Gary Gygax is also wrong sometimes. IMHO anyone who thinks everything he has said or written is golden hasn't read enough Gygax to be able to form an objective opinion.

I'm with Jeff. There's some good and some bad with Gygax.

Personally, I am very grateful and impressed with his very early work. But the rest I find extremely irrelevant. Especially his opinions.

I've always compared Gygax to Tony Iommi (Black Sabbath's guitarist). And I remember reading an interview in the 90s that applies here. When the interviewer asked him what he thought of the current scene (modern heavy metal) that he had helped spawned, he had something along those lines to say:

"I'm probably not the best person to ask. We may have given birth to heavy metal but we certainly never defined it"

I wish Gary would understand that as well.

The Evil DM · February 07, 2007, 01:46:01 PM

Quote from: jrientsBut Gary Gygax is also wrong sometimes.

BLASPHEMY!!

RPGPundit · February 07, 2007, 01:49:27 PM

Quote from: blakkieLOL, yes well he seems to have completely forgotten about the one random event generator still left at the table. Damn humans and their illogical emotions and whimsical choices always mucking shit up. People just can't always fully understand and predict with 100% accuracy the actions of another person. That is pretty much what passes for random.

I think you've ALMOST clued into the answer to Gary's statement here. To say "well, human beings are unpredictable" isn't quite enough, except if you have a system where that human unpredictability is built into the very nature of the randomizing factor of the system.

Thus, diceless RPGs where that is taken into account (ie. where how a person describes his action will actually have a direct bearing on the outcome) are still RPGs. A diceless game where that unpredictability does NOT have a direct impact (ie. where if you do a good job or a bad job of describing that you spend "x points" on an action won't affect the outcome of the action itself) are much more borderline cases.

RPGPundit

jrients · February 07, 2007, 01:56:29 PM

Quote from: The Evil DMBLASPHEMY!!

I stand by my statement but I would also note that if he showed up around here I would totally kiss the man's ass.

James McMurray · February 07, 2007, 01:57:14 PM

Quote from: blakkieLOL, yes well he seems to have completely forgotten about the one random event generator still left at the table. Damn humans and their illogical emotions and whimsical choices always mucking shit up. People just can't always fully understand and predict with 100% accuracy the actions of another person. That is pretty much what passes for random.

But that's not truly random. It may appear so to everyone else at the table. To use one of his examples, it's random if nobody can predict the blown tire. In a diceless game the GM can always predict the blown tire, because it doesn't happen unless he decides it will.

I suppose if you equate whimsy to randomness it works out, but that's not what most people tend to think of as generators of random chance. Then again I work in computers, so maybe it's just the people around me that form my "most people."

James McMurray · February 07, 2007, 01:58:15 PM

Quote from: jrientsI stand by my statement but I would also note that if he showed up around here I would totally kiss the man's ass.

A man of prinicpal with a strong compass! Good sho!

The Yann Waters · February 07, 2007, 02:03:29 PM

Quote from: RPGPunditA diceless game where that unpredictability does NOT have a direct impact (ie. where if you do a good job or a bad job of describing that you spend "x points" on an action won't affect the outcome of the action itself) are much more borderline cases.

But the description of the action may affect the difficulty assigned to it, while the cost in spent points merely limits the scale of that action and whether it's actually feasible. As said in another thread, it's no different from rolling against the relevant stats after deciding what it is that you wish the character to do.

James McMurray · February 07, 2007, 02:07:40 PM

Can we not turn this into another Amber vs. Nobilis debate, please?

The Yann Waters · February 07, 2007, 02:15:39 PM

Quote from: James McMurrayCan we not turn this into another Amber vs. Nobilis debate, please?

Well, that's more the matter of resource management versus straight comparison, which is one of the fundamental distinctions in diceless RPGs.

James McMurray · February 07, 2007, 02:20:41 PM

Understandable. How's this?

I'm definitely interested in that discussion, although I'll only be able to read half of it. I just wanted this thread to be about randomness vs. dicelessness in RPG qualifications, as well as to see how different people from the "Gygax defines RPGs" thread respond to his removal of a couple of the most famous nontraditional games from the hobby.

Balbinus · February 07, 2007, 02:39:13 PM

In terms of rpgs I want to play, I agree with him. In terms of what is actually an rpg, he's wrong.

The golfer being stung by a bee is realistic as a possibility, but out of genre for many genres. Some folk want their genre emulation, and who am I to deny it to them?

So, for me personally my tastes agree with his statement, but there are many fine rpgs that are not to my tastes.

Gygax on Diceless

Gabriel