Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 15, 2022, 02:51:56 AM

Quote from: Quasquetonian on August 14, 2022, 04:01:03 PM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 14, 2022, 11:02:20 AM(technically the orcs, goblins, ogres, hobgoblins and bugbears that revolted against Sintergoblin, a festive holiday in the city of Viroviacum and environs, where goblins are caught by man-catchers and are forced to throw candy towards the children of the city, only to be clubbed to death once they arrive on the market square)

That's a really fun bit of worldbuilding!

It of course has parallels with todays feast of Sinterklaas of when I grew up (and still is a thing). I just grew tired of the discussions about it (both sides have good points, but it's been done to death and I think with the current climate it'll die out in a generation or two.

The festive holiday (Sintergoblin) goes like this:

- Men of the city of Viroviacum paint themselves green or whatever that colour of the goblins is, and go about hunting goblins in the forests and marshes surrounding Viroviacum and the Gnome kingdom (ruled by a queen) called Gnome Anne's Land or, in vernacular, Nomansland.
- The more "progressive" elements of the city accuse these men of greenface. The fact these men go and hunt and catch goblins, is not the worst thing in their eyes: THEY PAINT THEIR FACES GREEN!
- The men return with goblins (mostly in carts such as the ones seen in the first Shrek movie) and attach man-catchers to their necks.
- The goblins then have to march, with the men (and women) of the city whipping them, towards the city square, all the while being forced to smile and throw candy and treats to the children
- When they arrive at the city square, they are to partake in the celebration feast of the First Battle of Viroviacum, that is to say, they are herded to a pen and then beaten to death.
- Their corpses are thrown into a bonfire, around which the townpeople dance and sing and make merry.
- This is a festive holiday held on the anniversary of the last invasion of the goblins - they try every so much years. Now, there came orcs, ogres, hobgoblins, bugbears and the like who are smarter than goblins, contacted some of the more "progressive" elements of the city and convinced them to leave the city gates open, they came in, butchered a lot of people and as it is now they are holding the city. And they've found a portal to the radiant citadel, where the leader of the horde is banished from.

I like it, though! Seems like a perfectly western fantasy holiday!

Quote from: ForgottenF on August 14, 2022, 06:51:21 PM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 14, 2022, 07:40:10 AM
"The Radiant Citadel's location within the Deep Ethereal makes it difficult to assault. It keeps no standing army, but its council for defense has contingency plans it frequently refines based on intelligence from the Court of Whispers.

The city's primary protection is a powerful ward that can be activated by the Speakers for the Ancestors. When all fifteen are assembled in the council room at the center of the Preserve, by unanimous consent they can erect a diamond sphere that envelops the entire city. The diamond sphere resembles the Auroral Diamond in texture and color and deflects all attacks. Nothing can pass or teleport through it.

If the diamond sphere cannot be erected for any reason, the Radiant Citadel is not helpless. Due to its many mysteries and its magical properties, the city attracts an unusually large number of powerful adventurers and spellcasters. If the citadel is attacked, no fewer than a dozen archmages and twenty mages led by Sholeh rally. If required, Arayat, commander of the Shieldbearers, also mobilizes his Shieldbearer veterans, while the other Speakers for the Ancestors call on the citizenry to bolster the city's defense.

The Auroral Diamond's illumination also provides strong protection. It radiates bright light throughout the city and dim light 1,000 feet beyond the city's borders. This light is akin to sunlight, which many natives of the Ethereal Plane and evil Undead abhor."

That whole passage just makes me think of a DM getting frustrated and going "Look, you just can't attack it, OK?!!!?!". If a DM put that in their homebrew game, the players' eyes would roll right out of their heads, but I guess that's the standard for official books now.

They were smart to put it in the Ethereal, instead of Astral plane, or else I would have said just notify the Ilithids or the Githyanki about it, and let them solve the problem for you. Or coax a couple of Astral Dreadnoughts into the area.

I don't know if "archmage" has an official definition in D&D now, but I assume it means "max-level wizard". If they behave the way wizards traditionally do (and the way they probably would if they existed), I feel like you could just wait for them to inevitably turn on each other. With how powerful high-level casters in 5e are, they'll probably nuke the whole place fighting each other.

EDIT: it reminds me of when they started giving the Gods statistics, and then acted surprised when players tried to kill them.

This is my reaction. Why did they spend such effort to define it's defenses? Not every place has to have a ludicrous series of explanations for how it's virtually impregnable.
Even Sigil merely states The Lady keeps the neutrality. It's still possible to get up to all kinds of shenangians there. You just can't be stupid about it. Done, move on.

Quote from: jeff37923 on August 15, 2022, 05:55:20 AM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 15, 2022, 02:51:56 AM

Quote from: Quasquetonian on August 14, 2022, 04:01:03 PM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 14, 2022, 11:02:20 AM(technically the orcs, goblins, ogres, hobgoblins and bugbears that revolted against Sintergoblin, a festive holiday in the city of Viroviacum and environs, where goblins are caught by man-catchers and are forced to throw candy towards the children of the city, only to be clubbed to death once they arrive on the market square)

That's a really fun bit of worldbuilding!

It of course has parallels with todays feast of Sinterklaas of when I grew up (and still is a thing). I just grew tired of the discussions about it (both sides have good points, but it's been done to death and I think with the current climate it'll die out in a generation or two.

The festive holiday (Sintergoblin) goes like this:

- Men of the city of Viroviacum paint themselves green or whatever that colour of the goblins is, and go about hunting goblins in the forests and marshes surrounding Viroviacum and the Gnome kingdom (ruled by a queen) called Gnome Anne's Land or, in vernacular, Nomansland.
- The more "progressive" elements of the city accuse these men of greenface. The fact these men go and hunt and catch goblins, is not the worst thing in their eyes: THEY PAINT THEIR FACES GREEN!
- The men return with goblins (mostly in carts such as the ones seen in the first Shrek movie) and attach man-catchers to their necks.
- The goblins then have to march, with the men (and women) of the city whipping them, towards the city square, all the while being forced to smile and throw candy and treats to the children
- When they arrive at the city square, they are to partake in the celebration feast of the First Battle of Viroviacum, that is to say, they are herded to a pen and then beaten to death.
- Their corpses are thrown into a bonfire, around which the townpeople dance and sing and make merry.
- This is a festive holiday held on the anniversary of the last invasion of the goblins - they try every so much years. Now, there came orcs, ogres, hobgoblins, bugbears and the like who are smarter than goblins, contacted some of the more "progressive" elements of the city and convinced them to leave the city gates open, they came in, butchered a lot of people and as it is now they are holding the city. And they've found a portal to the radiant citadel, where the leader of the horde is banished from.

I like it, though! Seems like a perfectly western fantasy holiday!

Of course, it's partly a criticism of the holiday as well. There's butter on all of our heads on this one, as the saying goes.

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 15, 2022, 09:14:54 AM
Of course, it's partly a criticism of the holiday as well. There's butter on all of our heads on this one, as the saying goes.

Butter on heads?
That must be a Belgian expression, probably similar to saying someone "has egg on their face."

Quote from: jeff37923 on August 14, 2022, 03:14:54 PM
Well, if you want to be realistic about it........

Just sit back and wait for them to eat themselves, as all woke seem to do. Or you could accelerate the process by introducing some succubus' to seduce the male governing population and thus cause mayhem, which is also something that seems to happen a lot to the woke.

As presented I think the big problem is the temptation to abuse the power they have. They are one step away from Thought Police and mind control. Or going Murder Pacifist.

Top Ballista could have had the same problem. But how it is governed and the situation keeps the flying citadel from collapsing. And even the normally evil races like Nagpa and Gremlins are behaving for various reasons. And because everyone else would quickly band together and at the very least kick them out, or worse case scenario - put them to the sword. That and the gnomes are probably the only race able to safely dick around with Blackmoor magitech and not get atomized. The pieces mesh with the quirky ideals of the place.

Radiant Citadel could have been that too. A fun place to visit that is not a death trap waiting to happen. Or in the process of happening. Or somehow oppressive under the surface.

Then again Radiant Citadel would be a perfect cantidate for incarceration in my old "Demi-plane of Joy" where these sorts of broken utopias get pulled into. The counterbalance to Ravenloft.

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 15, 2022, 02:51:56 AM
It of course has parallels with todays feast of Sinterklaas of when I grew up (and still is a thing). I just grew tired of the discussions about it (both sides have good points, but it's been done to death and I think with the current climate it'll die out in a generation or two.

The festive holiday (Sintergoblin) goes like this:

- Men of the city of Viroviacum paint themselves green or whatever that colour of the goblins is, and go about hunting goblins in the forests and marshes surrounding Viroviacum and the Gnome kingdom (ruled by a queen) called Gnome Anne's Land or, in vernacular, Nomansland.
- The more "progressive" elements of the city accuse these men of greenface. The fact these men go and hunt and catch goblins, is not the worst thing in their eyes: THEY PAINT THEIR FACES GREEN!
- The men return with goblins (mostly in carts such as the ones seen in the first Shrek movie) and attach man-catchers to their necks.
- The goblins then have to march, with the men (and women) of the city whipping them, towards the city square, all the while being forced to smile and throw candy and treats to the children
- When they arrive at the city square, they are to partake in the celebration feast of the First Battle of Viroviacum, that is to say, they are herded to a pen and then beaten to death.
- Their corpses are thrown into a bonfire, around which the townpeople dance and sing and make merry.
- This is a festive holiday held on the anniversary of the last invasion of the goblins - they try every so much years. Now, there came orcs, ogres, hobgoblins, bugbears and the like who are smarter than goblins, contacted some of the more "progressive" elements of the city and convinced them to leave the city gates open, they came in, butchered a lot of people and as it is now they are holding the city. And they've found a portal to the radiant citadel, where the leader of the horde is banished from.

Thanks for the extra detail.  Given the name, I figured it was a riff on Sinterklaas.  The image of terrified goblins being led through the streets and forced to throw candy to happy children was really vivid.  Pretty fun.

Quote from: Effete on August 15, 2022, 10:28:17 AM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 15, 2022, 09:14:54 AM
Of course, it's partly a criticism of the holiday as well. There's butter on all of our heads on this one, as the saying goes.

Butter on heads?
That must be a Belgian expression, probably similar to saying someone "has egg on their face."

I used to hear a variation on that many a decade ago. Butterhead. If the terms are the same then its something like. "Pot calling the Kettle Black" and similar. Basically to make a fool of yourself through accusation. Though more often just to make a fool of yourself.

Came across this in listing of Dutch Proverbs. So maybe the Pot-Kettle analogy is right?

QuoteProverb 112 "boter op z'n hoofd hebben"
Literally: to have butter on his head. The proverb is used to someone who is criticising others, while he himself could be blamed as well. The original proverb, a few centuries ago, was that one who had butter on his head should stay out of the sun. Because, the butter would melt.

That sure describes some of the writers for the book. But I believe some of the others are honest folk who have been roped into this by WOTC lies. Happens all too often.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 15, 2022, 07:45:49 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on August 14, 2022, 06:51:21 PM
That whole passage just makes me think of a DM getting frustrated and going "Look, you just can't attack it, OK?!!!?!". If a DM put that in their homebrew game, the players' eyes would roll right out of their heads, but I guess that's the standard for official books now.

EDIT: it reminds me of when they started giving the Gods statistics, and then acted surprised when players tried to kill them.

This is my reaction. Why did they spend such effort to define it's defenses? Not every place has to have a ludicrous series of explanations for how it's virtually impregnable.
Even Sigil merely states The Lady keeps the neutrality. It's still possible to get up to all kinds of shenangians there. You just can't be stupid about it. Done, move on.

I never got the impression that Zeb Cook regarded Sigil as some kind of aspirational utopia. You can just picture the writers' meeting for Radiant Citadel where some designer said "You know that bad, wicked, wrongthinking, cryptofascist players are going to want to destroy our wonderful socialist ideal, so we have to write into the module that its impossible to do that". Of course, the fact that they think writing something into the module makes it player-proof just shows that they don't understand how the game works.

Quote from: ForgottenF on August 15, 2022, 11:02:34 AM
I never got the impression that Zeb Cook regarded Sigil as some kind of aspirational utopia. You can just picture the writers' meeting for Radiant Citadel where some designer said "You know that bad, wicked, wrongthinking, cryptofascist players are going to want to destroy our wonderful socialist ideal, so we have to write into the module that its impossible to do that". Of course, the fact that they think writing something into the module makes it player-proof just shows that they don't understand how the game works.

You credit them with too much intelligence. What more likely happened is they just cribbed noted from FR's Mythals which as noted above can to far more than just put up a barrier like that.

Spheres of Annihilation

And if you're in the Forgotten Realms setting, call Entropy there. She/It hates mages and magic-users and would gladly obliterate everything and everyone there.

Quote from: Omega on August 15, 2022, 10:54:32 AM

Quote from: Effete on August 15, 2022, 10:28:17 AM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on August 15, 2022, 09:14:54 AM
Of course, it's partly a criticism of the holiday as well. There's butter on all of our heads on this one, as the saying goes.

Butter on heads?
That must be a Belgian expression, probably similar to saying someone "has egg on their face."

I used to hear a variation on that many a decade ago. Butterhead. If the terms are the same then its something like. "Pot calling the Kettle Black" and similar. Basically to make a fool of yourself through accusation. Though more often just to make a fool of yourself.

Came across this in listing of Dutch Proverbs. So maybe the Pot-Kettle analogy is right?

QuoteProverb 112 "boter op z'n hoofd hebben"
Literally: to have butter on his head. The proverb is used to someone who is criticising others, while he himself could be blamed as well. The original proverb, a few centuries ago, was that one who had butter on his head should stay out of the sun. Because, the butter would melt.

That sure describes some of the writers for the book. But I believe some of the others are honest folk who have been roped into this by WOTC lies. Happens all too often.

To have butter on one's head means being culpable of the same thing someone either fights or accuses other people of. Boter op z'n hoofd hebben.