To me the very concept of a Gurps Dungeon Fantasy is weird. It's like having a fantasy dungeon version of Gamma World or Metamorphosis Alpha. Why not just play its predecessor, The Fantasy Trip?

If you look back at GURPS1e and its example character and so on, it was plain it was set up to be the generic competitor to D&D. "Look! You can do the same stuff, but with more flexibility than character classes allow!" And it wasn't bad at that, it's only with the overly-weighty GURPS4e that it really fell on its arse.

And DF... well, they just didn't really get OSR stuff. 250 point characters? Seriously?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1077980And DF... well, they just didn't really get OSR stuff. 250 point characters? Seriously?

Not all who dungeon crawl like OSR stuff. Besides why make a product for OSR fans anyway; they already have the products they want.

Quote from: sureshot;1077968I just find SJG business plan confusing to say the least. Fans were asking for Gurps Vehicles 4E to be released they gave the fans Gurps Mars Attacks and Discworld. The fans made DFRPG what is and it's a failure. Full disclosure I'm not a fan of DFRPG in general. I wonder though if maybe SJG is done with Gurps and is trying to kill it off. Honestly I just do not know what to make of how they are handling Gurps.

According to posts from staff over on BGG. Gurps does not make money so SJG has little interest in it.

Quote from: David Johansen;1077929...It's a really nice little boxed set.  About twice the complexity I'd have gone with but they clearly opted to make a box that appealed to existing fans than one to appeal to new fans.  Given the fans are the ones who back kickstarter that makes some sense anyhow..

This is a BIG problem.

Because:

Quote from: estar;1077955The fundamental problem ... is ... GURPS languished just enough that it drifted towards catering to the existing fans. ....

When you are only catering to the hardcore fanbase, you are greatly limiting your ability to reach a wider audience.

Quote from: David Johansen;1077929.I'm always frusterated with SJG and their approach to GURPS.  I understand that they know the business and have the numbers ....

They have the numbers of what's left of the fanbase that is willing to pour over 4e and make use of it.

If they want new blood, they have to design for new blood.

And the overall trend is not for more complexity in games.

Look what has happened with 5e when they dialed back the complexity from the 3.5e era...

In fact without the disaster of 4e, I doubt 5e would have been given the latitude to go the direction that it did.

Luckily WOTC had the $$$ to pull a U-turn on the 4e disaster and take a mulligan. Which worked out great!

But if 4e was more of a logical successor to 3.x, I don't think that they would have had as much success. (Not that they wouldn't be the #1 selling RPG. But not what we are seeing with 5e now.)

Wish this were on indiegogo instead. Too bad, I'd back this if it were.

Quote from: JeremyR;1077974To me the very concept of a Gurps Dungeon Fantasy is weird. It's like having a fantasy dungeon version of Gamma World or Metamorphosis Alpha. Why not just play its predecessor, The Fantasy Trip?

TFT is not the same game.

The current issue with GURPS is that it presented solely as a toolkit. So in order to run a campaign you need to take the "bits" and assemble all the "stuff" you find in the three books of D&D (spells, magic items, monsters, etc). Some parts are well covered like spells, some are not like monsters.

Dungeon Fantasy RPG is GURPS with stuff and only the rules you need to run it.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1077972I have a number of other fantasy games that I like better for varying reasons. I can always find players for D&D (5e), I like the world flavor of Earthdawn and WFRP (2e or 4e), and I can even go away from the usual with Conan (2d20) or Realms of Terinoth (FFG's Genesys), and if I only want "part-time fantasy" then there's the Asyle Cosm of TORG Eternity. DF doesn't really excel at any particular thing that I'm looking for in fantasy games, and that's really all it's set up to do.

Well it is GURPS just with stuff and only the rules you need to run it. I see your point as one need have the GURPS core books to get use out of it for non D&D fantasy. And the 250 pt starting point mutes the grittiness that was the one of the hallmark of its appeal back when it was first release in the late 80s.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1077970You are assuming there is a coherent plan, rather than just the day-to-day whims of a geek with a bar fridge full of coca-cola next to his desk

At this point given how long they have been in the rpg business they should have a better idea of how to run their business and more importantly what to invest their money. If SJG was a new company I would give them more slack. At this point they should know with their eyes closed what is popular and what is not imo. It's the same way when Palladium Books fans make excuses for Kevin and his abysmal release schedules. You want to claim that as a company your have been in the business 30+ years, don't tell me at this point that you have no way of knowing how long it will take to write and publish a book.

Quote from: Omega;1077992According to posts from staff over on BGG. Gurps does not make money so SJG has little interest in it.

Well when the company that created the product is showing to me at least that they are not really interested in trying to make more money with said product. It's on them when their product is not doing well. Fans have been asking for years for Gurps Vehicles 4E..they instead gave them gurps Discworld and Mars Attacks. I can kind of understand the first as it's somewhat of known and popular series of novels. The second just seems like it came out of left field. Even then I could understand publishing it if their was a TV show or a reboot of the original movie. As an IP it's not that popular imo. If SJGames has little interest and the IP is not making money sell it or license it out to someone else who has an interest in it.

Quote from: David Johansen;1077929About twice the complexity I'd have gone with but they clearly opted to make a box that appealed to existing fans than one to appeal to new fans

Quote from: estar;1077955The fundamental problem ... is ... GURPS languished just enough that it drifted towards catering to the existing fans. ....

It's not just an issue with SJGames take a look at Hero Games. At least the first is publishing some Gurps material. The second is on life support and survives exclusively on 3pp. Instead of trying to reach out to new fans they insist on only catering to the old ones. Which is fine if the number of old fans is enough to make the line profitable. Both companies ignored the trends in the rpg market to less complexity. I somehow doubt we will every see a trend towards rpg complexity ever again imo. Even then ones rpg can remain complex and crunchy IF their are not other competing rules light and less complex rpgs. Unfortunately for both companies they have other companies that provide that.

It's also not helped that SJGames and Hero Games fanbase adamantly refuse to have anything to do with rules light and less complex. One company is on life support the other contemplating of reducing or cutting back on publishing product. Somehow they expect the trend to reverse itself and many fans will suddenly come out of the woodwork to embrace both rpgs..any day now..any day now. They rather the company go under or stop publishing material which helps nobody really.

I can't say one way or another whether a reprint is a good idea or not. I don't begrudge them for testing the waters, even if pushing the DF line seems... a little misguided, to me. The second Monsters book I'll be getting assuming the KS pays off.

I think SJG has made a number of missteps, but overall I'm actually pretty encouraged by the direction they're heading. Baby steps that are happening way later than they should have IMO, but still.

They made the hard choice to cut Pyramid and begin moving resources back to prime first-party content (Action 5 is a good example of what I'd love to see more of using those resources), and as Kromm's livejournal has been updating, they've been looking over a LOT of different 3rd party proposals and approved what looks to be a very decent number already, with even more currently in review. Quite a list of announced first-party content has been staged along the production pipeline, with several more announced-but-not-revealed (most of them looking to be larger projects, [non-DF, even] too).

It may not be OGL territory and SJG still comes off as extremely gunshy to me, but that they're willing to step into Kickstarters more deliberately now and contract out to 3rd party content creators gives me great hope. Douglas Cole is an obvious "flagship creator" to me in the sense that I hope other content creators might follow suit, and continue to encourage SJG to be more open with regards to experimentation with their product lines and overall GURPS licensing policies.

Anyway, I'm no business guru and I don't work in the industry. This is all just gut-feel to me. But overall, I find SJG's recent direction to be more encouraging than not.

Quote from: Chocolate Sauce;1078016Wish this were on indiegogo instead. Too bad, I'd back this if it were.

Okay, I'll bite.  Why?

My issue with GURPS is that it's a toolkit not an RPG system. The GM has to put in a lot of effort to get the game going.

I like the idea of Dungeon Fantasy being an example build of GURPS as a system. I would prefer a cohesive book though...

Still you have the issue of players needing both DF and GURPS core to play. At least 3 books and GURPS doesn't have a D&D 3.X srd that my D&D 3.X groups found essential to run the game.

Oh and screw SJG for not providing the PDF with a physical book purchase. I don't want to buy your book twice and no one else does either.

As much as people, myself included, would like to see a one book GURPS Medium, I suspect you really need a one book fantasy point of entry.  They do have GURPS Disc World, which is indeed a one book fantasy entry.  Also there is GURPS Vorkosigian which is a one book sf point of entry.  Personally, both are a bit obscure. In my experience the overlap between people who read fantasy and science fiction and gamers isn't nearly as great as it once was.  Back in third edition they did GURPS Myth based on the video game series too.  So, I think SJG haven't been really wowed by the results of one book points of entry.  I believe a generic fantasy game in one book would be ideal for getting new people to try GURPS.  But I could be wrong.  I often am.

Quote from: David Johansen;1078061Okay, I'll bite.  Why?

I got burned by palladium's robotech campaign years ago. Their complete non-action and outright protecting palladium pissed me off. Kickstarter doesn't do enough to keep project starters honest. not saying indiegogo is any better, but hey.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1078063Still you have the issue of players needing both DF and GURPS core to play.

Just thought I'd mention: Dungeon Fantasy is a standalone game, you do not need GURPS Basic Set to play.

That said, what confuses the issue is that there is also a "GURPS Dungeon Fantasy" line for regular GURPS, which of course does require GURPS Basic Set to use.