Quote from: danbuter;583794I used to be against gunpowder, as already noted, it's not really in most fantasy books. Lately, though, I wouldn't mind it in limited doses. Something like the grenades and bombs used in the Malazan books would be pretty cool. Guns reserved to NPC monsters like skaven is also perfectly fine with me.

Hmmm...skaven with guns...invading a low tech dnd setting...hmmmm

I don't get why its not in the fantasy books; ancient gunpowder is fucking cool; as evidenced by the way my players are all desperate to have it despite it being a clearly sub-optimal ranged weapon choice.

RPGPundit

Might just be that players connect gunpowder with modern guns in their head.

To me, a primitive gun is somewhat equal to a crossbow.

Well...a crossbow that might explode and hurt you when you fire it...but anyway...

Quote from: Bill;584379Might just be that players connect gunpowder with modern guns in their head.

To me, a primitive gun is somewhat equal to a crossbow.

Well...a crossbow that might explode and hurt you when you fire it...but anyway...

I think its that there's something swashbuckling about a flintlock.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;584317I don't get why its not in the fantasy books; ancient gunpowder is fucking cool; as evidenced by the way my players are all desperate to have it despite it being a clearly sub-optimal ranged weapon choice.

Mostly a stylistic choice, I think, hearkening (as others have pointed out) to Tolkien's Middle-Earth, Howard's Hybroian Age and other well-known and well-regarded fantasy milieu from which gunpowder is noticeably absent.

I want to say WFRP was the first (thesis: WFRP 1e is The Warhound and The World's Pain RPG -- it's all there: C16 Germany, apocalyptic forces of Chaos with Satanic trappings, etc. -- plus dwarves, elves and orcs) really popular fantasy RPG with black powder guns in the core rulebook but I can't say for sure.

Quote from: The Butcher;584549Mostly a stylistic choice, I think, hearkening (as others have pointed out) to Tolkien's Middle-Earth, Howard's Hybroian Age and other well-known and well-regarded fantasy milieu from which gunpowder is noticeably absent.

I want to say WFRP was the first (thesis: WFRP 1e is The Warhound and The World's Pain RPG -- it's all there: C16 Germany, apocalyptic forces of Chaos with Satanic trappings, etc. -- plus dwarves, elves and orcs) really popular fantasy RPG with black powder guns in the core rulebook but I can't say for sure.

I think you may well be right, unless you count the Boot Hill conversion notes in the AD&D DMG.

RPGPundit

Quote from: The Butcher;584549Mostly a stylistic choice, I think, hearkening (as others have pointed out) to Tolkien's Middle-Earth, Howard's Hybroian Age and other well-known and well-regarded fantasy milieu from which gunpowder is noticeably absent.

For myself, gunpowder marks the end of the 'fantasy age' using magic and the beginning of the 'industrial age' using technology.  I suppose that could be called a stylistic choice, but I see it as the demarcation of genres.  The former covers pretty much anything pre-Renaissance, while the latter is everything from steampunk forward to the distant future.  I just don't see a way to mix them without irrevocably changing the fantasy setting by moving it inexorably forward.

Quote from: StormBringer;584858For myself, gunpowder marks the end of the 'fantasy age' using magic and the beginning of the 'industrial age' using technology.  I suppose that could be called a stylistic choice, but I see it as the demarcation of genres.  The former covers pretty much anything pre-Renaissance, while the latter is everything from steampunk forward to the distant future.  I just don't see a way to mix them without irrevocably changing the fantasy setting by moving it inexorably forward.

I think that's a result of conflating "fantasy" with the rampant medievalism that's entrenched in fantasy rpgs.  They're not the same thing at all.  Limiting yourself to pseudo-medieval fantasy and setting 'magic' and 'industry' as opposites is denying yourself some pretty fun options.

Of course, in the end it's all just recombining elements as a stylistic choice, as you mention.  But I don't think a game (or novel, or film) is any less "fantastic" because it has guns in it.

If you move "the technology slider" wholesale, then yes, you might get what you're talking about as a result.  But there's no reason to think you have to advance tech all together, or even in the same direction.

In my campaign, have gunpowder and revolvers, but no steam or electricity, for example.

Quote from: VectorSigma;584863I think that's a result of conflating "fantasy" with the rampant medievalism that's entrenched in fantasy rpgs.  They're not the same thing at all.  Limiting yourself to pseudo-medieval fantasy and setting 'magic' and 'industry' as opposites is denying yourself some pretty fun options.

Well, in my view, that is getting into sub-genres.  I prefer a medieval sort of fantasy when I play those kinds of games.  Other kinds of fantasy, perhaps 'weird horror', certainly have merit; I just don't prefer them wholesale.  I have no qualms about stealing various elements and incorporating them into a medieval fantasy setting, however.  Good artists create, great artists steal and all that.  

QuoteOf course, in the end it's all just recombining elements as a stylistic choice, as you mention.  But I don't think a game (or novel, or film) is any less "fantastic" because it has guns in it.

It was The Butcher's choice of words, but I think it is a good choice.  I dig sword-and-planet stuff, or various kinds of firearms mixed with archaic armour and weapons on occasion.  The problem I have with quasi-rampant re-mixing is that...

QuoteIf you move "the technology slider" wholesale, then yes, you might get what you're talking about as a result.  But there's no reason to think you have to advance tech all together, or even in the same direction.

In my campaign, have gunpowder and revolvers, but no steam or electricity, for example.

Generally, technology moves somewhat together.  For a variety of reasons, electricity will not be far behind gunpowder or revolvers and would probably pre-date it by a number of decades. And steam will be in use possibly a century or more before firearm technology catches up.  The Ancient Greeks knew how to harness steam power.

The technology to cast and drill out a revolver cylinder implicitly supposes that one has already figured out how to extrude wire out of a number of materials.  Notably copper in this case.  And batteries have been around for thousands of years, so generating electricity isn't actually as difficult as is often assumed.  Creating and maintaining an infrastructure for widespread use of electricity is difficult, to be sure.

Again, not a criticism of your campaign; if you and your players are having fun with it, more power to you.  I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to have more or less common laser guns in a world with chainmail, swords and only very crude medical advances.  To say nothing of lasers and magic in the same campaign.  Perhaps a one off, like Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.  I just wouldn't enjoy primitive weapons/armour/etc. alongside slug throwers or laser guns.  There is virtually no way that would make sense to me.

Or you could infer from all the clay jar "batteries" littering the Fertile Crescent and Egyptian reliefs depicting what seems to be light bulbs that a fantasy world where electricity came millennia before black powder is wholly plausible.

Or you could infer an Andean land that knew how to weave airtight textiles several centuries before the industrial revolution, create the Nazca lines, invent a 'written language' out of thread, placed mammoths blocks atop another so expertly without mortar, etc. and hadn't the foundational wheel or even iron age could justify any old fantasy world wholly obviating the need of other assumed tech advances.

Gun powder does not equal industrial revolution. Modern civilization does not assume an age of ignorance throughout the rest of the world. Technology does not have to spread at a homogeneous rate. Nor is needed our popularly accepted narrative of how the "tech tree flows;" Civilization/Sim City games are just games, not the "Truth!"

Imaginary worlds thus have outrageous amounts of leeway just from using our limited immediate perspective from a singular planet, from a singular dominant intelligent species. I find there's no excuse to be stuck on the same old song at this point. And the arquebus is still in the PHB.

Quote from: Opaopajr;584880Or you could infer from all the clay jar "batteries" littering the Fertile Crescent and Egyptian reliefs depicting what seems to be light bulbs that a fantasy world where electricity came millennia before black powder is wholly plausible.

Well, that's rather my point, isn't it?  Having revolvers with no electricity present is rather... odd.

QuoteOr you could infer an Andean land that knew how to weave airtight textiles several centuries before the industrial revolution, create the Nazca lines, invent a 'written language' out of thread, placed mammoths blocks atop another so expertly without mortar, etc. and hadn't the foundational wheel or even iron age could justify any old fantasy world wholly obviating the need of other assumed tech advances.

The Incas, Aztecs and Mayans all knew about the wheel.  They simply didn't use it for transportation like other civilizations.  The reasons are still debated.  Ancient Celtics erected Stonehenge before the iron age, Ancient Egyptians constructed the pyramids without mortar, Sumerians had a written language five thousand years ago, the geoglyphs at Nazca are hardly unique, and since they made wide use of rubber, air- and water-tight textiles are unsurprising.

What they didn't have were laser guns, rocket ships, or powered armour.  And if these had been present, you can bet they would have long since given up on moving giant stone blocks around and scratching 200m drawings in the desert.

So, no, you can't just assume that any level of technology will continue to exist alongside any other level of technology.  Do you still have a buggy whip?  Is the hand crank for your horseless carriage stored in the trunk or under the hood?  What's the address for the cooper that makes your chariot wheels?  Technology doesn't advance in a silo; it inexorably pulls everything along with it.

QuoteGun powder does not equal industrial revolution. Modern civilization does not assume an age of ignorance throughout the rest of the world. Technology does not have to spread at a homogeneous rate. Nor is needed our popularly accepted narrative of how the "tech tree flows;" Civilization/Sim City games are just games, not the "Truth!"

Gun powder is very much a by-product of industrialization.  And no one assumed an age of ignorance in the rest of the world, nor that technology advances at some exact pace.  But when gun powder and rifles were introduced to the battlefield, swords and armour stopped being used.  Just about instantly.  You may have noticed that no current armed forces fields an infantry unit composed of archers, swordsman and pikes.  Cavalry units don't actually ride horses with lances anymore.

QuoteImaginary worlds thus have outrageous amounts of leeway just from using our limited immediate perspective from a singular planet, from a singular dominant intelligent species. I find there's no excuse to be stuck on the same old song at this point. And the arquebus is still in the PHB.

The arquebus is in the 2nd Edition PHB.

And there are only outrageous amounts of leeway when you mis-read history.

Quote from: StormBringer;584867The problem I have with quasi-rampant re-mixing is that...

Generally, technology moves somewhat together.

  I just can't suspend my disbelief enough

  There is virtually no way that would make sense to me.

Oh, Stormy.  It's called fantasy.  

Say it with me now: fan-ta-sy.

I appreciate that you're not criticizing my campaign or anything like that, but I'm still going to give you shit on this.  You sound like a GURPS-head, all twitchy and shouting "TECH LEVEL!" at your monitor.

Quote from: VectorSigma;584907Oh, Stormy.  It's called fantasy.  

Say it with me now: fan-ta-sy.

I appreciate that you're not criticizing my campaign or anything like that, but I'm still going to give you shit on this.  You sound like a GURPS-head, all twitchy and shouting "TECH LEVEL!" at your monitor.

That's fine.  

Like I said, gun powder = technology for me, and I don't like the two to mix very much.  But if it works at other folks' tables, no skin off my nose.  

As far as I'm aware, gunpowder weapons were extremely inaccurate until the invention of the rifle: they were a battlefield weapon where massed ranks of men would pour masses of shot into massed ranks of other men, and thus score hits by dint of sheer blind luck.

In the kind of skirmishing melee fights that go on in RPGs, with combatants numbering usually less than a dozen or so, gunpowder weapons would be worse than useless - too inaccurate to aim and fire at an individual enemy, and then once you've fired it you have to drop it and pull out a sword because somebody is trying to axe you to death.

Quote from: VectorSigma;584907Oh, Stormy.  It's called fantasy.  

Say it with me now: fan-ta-sy.

I appreciate that you're not criticizing my campaign or anything like that, but I'm still going to give you shit on this.  You sound like a GURPS-head, all twitchy and shouting "TECH LEVEL!" at your monitor.

Your version of fantasy is not the version that sell millions of copies every year. It's been dead since the 70's.