Quote from: Omega;878957Except that HP has nothing to do with how "gritty" a setting is. Nor does death spirals, insta-kills, or any of the other methods.

BX is gritty because civilization is on the edge still and life is just one step from ending at every corner.

AD&D with just the books is much the same. Civilization is few and far between and there are ruins freaking everywhere of abandoned or destroyed cities. Civilization sometimes feels like its one orc away from ending. And at the low levels about everyone is still one step away from being killed and eaten by a badger.

I'm not sure what definition of "gritty" you are thinking of. Even if we were just talking about lethality of the combat system, there could be different ways to measure lethality. In past conversations, especially the first times I remember people trying to refer to "gritty" RPGs as a term (30 years ago?) they meant games where play involved many details, such as what supplies do you have, what's available for sale, how is everyone carrying everything, what are you doing about the wind and rain, is your map getting wet, are you rations going bad, who knows whether those mushrooms are edible, etc.

So maybe your definition of grit doesn't relate to hit points, "death spirals" or "insta-kills", but it seems to me such things would be liable to be relevant to some other people's idea of what "gritty" is. That is:

* Not just that there are hit points, but that a sword might do 1d8 damage without chance of higher damage, and its fairly common for a human to have well over 8 HP, so getting hit with a sword once can't be lethal.

* "death spirals" sounds to me like the term people use for effects of injury, when they don't like that the game includes them. Seems to me having effects of injury to consider is what I tend to think of as more "gritty".

* "insta-kills" also sounds a bit like someone talking about the possibility of one attack killing someone, when they don't like that that's possible. Since real weapons tend to be able to do this sometimes, and having to consider that adds a level of uncertainty and danger, that too seems like what I tend to think of as more "gritty" than a game where you can count on surviving any attack.

I also was going to say Midnight. Just think of it as Middle Earth, but Sauron won, and you have to survive.

Gritty to me has two components.

First is tone, a lot of the time the setting is dark, personal, not quite hopeless, but it's very 'dirty'.

Second is mechanical, where limb removal and maiming is a risk.

But that's just me.

Quote from: S'mon;879186'Midnight' felt grim & gritty to me - mostly grim, with the sense of hopelessness, frequently getting our butts kicked by the Shadow forces (basically it's a setting where the good races are in the position you normally see the orcs & goblins in) but there was also stuff like us 'heroes' punishing helpless civilians for collaboration with the Shadow. And PC death was easy, cheap & permanent.

For that sort of setting, there isn't much magic available to the PCs even if t is around in the setting.  There are clerics in Midnight but they all worship Izrador.  Arcane magic is outlawed.  Magic weapons are rare and nearly unavailable to the PCs.  There is magic around,  You just don't get much of it.  Warhammer Fantasy is kind of like that too.  There is magic and it can be very powerful but most PCs will never be able to use it.

People use the term gritty in all sorts of different ways so what people consider to be a gritty setting varies quite a bit.  It;s hard to say whether there are gritty setting with lots of magic without some idea of what is meant by gritty setting.

Play as mortals in Godbound.

We'd have to assess what we consider 'gritty' and what we consider 'high magic'.  You could say Elric, for example, which is pretty gritty, and which features some very powerful magic (though only certain people have it).

The Wilderlands has already been mentioned.

It seems to me that 'gritty and high magic' would fit in a lot of Sword & Sorcery.

As much as I like Mystara, I would say that while Karameikos is high-magic, it's not 'gritty'.

Quote from: RPGPundit;879922As much as I like Mystara, I would say that while Karameikos is high-magic, it's not 'gritty'.

Mystara is anything but gritty. Karameikos was though. Im actually not that fond of Mystara because it removed that "humanity on the edge" feel BXs Karameikos had.

Quote from: Omega;879969Mystara is anything but gritty. Karameikos was though. Im actually not that fond of Mystara because it removed that "humanity on the edge" feel BXs Karameikos had.

That wasn't really my reading of Karameikos. It had something of the frontier, sure, but it didn't feel gritty to me.

Quote from: RPGPundit;880538That wasn't really my reading of Karameikos. It had something of the frontier, sure, but it didn't feel gritty to me.

I guess Night's Black Terror is quite gritty - most of the TSR UK modules feel fairly gritty compared to US made material, just for cultural reasons.

Aside from In search of the Unknown, Keep on the Borderlands, and Isle of Dread, my experience with BX modules was limited till some time after.  The first two in particular set the tone for me of how I perceived Karemeikos. The Lost City just adds to that feeling.

Later modules were more upbeat or at least feel that way after the bleakness of the early stuff.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;878363Are there any gritty and lethal settings in D&D or other RPGs that are also high magic?

'Gritty' suggests to me various kinds of poverty that are probably not associated with "high magic" unless you're in a situation like 'cyberpunk' (the have-heroes surrounded by have-not-norms) or a big war.

As for lethality, that's built in to high-level TSR-era D&D. Wizards themselves are most vulnerable to one-shot kills from other wizards, but violent conflict with near-peers can easily be deadly for any figure, and the span of inferior levels so dangerous grows with increasing level above 'name' level.

Gritty to me is boiled down to this:

Life is cheap.

This doesn't mean that all part of the world is like this. It means that enough of the world is like this where when the PC's encounter it, they feel it viscerally.

And that's just it - gritty has visceral quality to it. Players should feel on edge with moments of much appreciated relief when they have actual sanctuary.

How that all is expressed - regardless of the level of magic (though high-magic powered settings that are gritty can be pretty scary.) is dependent on the other conceits of the setting.

Talislanta, to me, exemplifies this. Outside of the Seven Kingdoms - it's pretty f'ing hardcore. Kang Empire, Beastmen savages, The Rajanistan Empire, lots of death-cults, and crazy ruins of the insanely powerful ancients. And the magic of Talislanta is potentially among the most powerful I've encountered in fantasy RPG's... assuming you let your player's get to that level of play.

Everything is on the table in Talislanta.

Midnight is another good choice. I'd also vote for Ars Magica. Dark Sun too.

Tekumel, Exalted, Glorantha all fit the theme:).

I'll make a recommendation for a new game: Symbaroum is a Swedish RPG set in the aftermath of a great war, the survivors slowly reclaiming an ancient land of dark forests to replace their ruined homeland. Of course the inhabitants of the forest aren't overtly keen on being pushed out by some snotty human upstarts, leading to much adventuring fun in a landscape of deep mistrust in the endless, dark woods.

It's certainly high magic, and it's gritty in the way that the central conflict is more muddy and ambiguous than most orcs vs. human settings, and foolhardy adventurers who go too deep into the forest are more often than not never heard from again. A fun little setting.

Also the art is gorgeous

Quote from: AsenRG;880642Tekumel, Exalted, Glorantha all fit the theme:).

Without Tekumel there would be no Talislanta. Good call. Same with Glorantha.