Grim and Gritty books: Guardians of the Flame series

I always struggle with describing my own fantasy campaign.

It's very much centered on heroic adventure, heck it's basically Epic Fantasy in that respect. But the combat system and events can appear to be GNG.

If anyone saw last Tuesday's The Unit on CBS, put a PC in the role of all the characters including the injured one- and that's sometimes how my game goes. To me, epic fantasy is that. Lord of Rings wasn't the happy books people like to say they are. Nor was Chronicles of Prydain.

So I think I should just say that I do Epic Fantasy. Except that is such a poor match for how people react to that term in rpgs.

I can't say GNG, because that implies a lack of meaningful Good in the world.

So I end up using a thousand words or so to get the point across.

Quote from: gleichmanSo I think I should just say that I do Epic Fantasy. Except that is such a poor match for how people react to that term in rpgs.

I can't say GNG, because that implies a lack of meaningful Good in the world.

So I end up using a thousand words or so to get the point across.

Perhaps what you run is heroism with consequences - sometimes extremely dire ones - which in turn is reflected in both tone(setting) and system?

Regards,
David R

When I think of GnG in literature, I usually think of the Black Company series by Glen Cook. I would also say the Book of the New Sun by Gene Wolfe.

In movies, Krysst and I were discussing 13th Warrior, the Punisher and Unleashed. I agree with the Wild Bunch and would probably include Point Blank, Reservoir Dogs and True Romance.

Comic books, I would say Grimjack and Hawkworld (the mini-series), both by Tim Truman (Grimjack written by Jon Ostrander), as well as Suicide Squad (at least in the beginning) and early Punisher.

It's actually hard to list GnG examples, because most (including much of the list I just gave) aren't really GnG all around, but have elements of GnG. I'm starting to think that, like beauty, GnG is in the eye of the beholder.

I'm going to have to put some serious thought into how to modify my games to deliver a truer GnG experience.

Quote from: FraserRonaldI'm going to have to put some serious thought into how to modify my games to deliver a truer GnG experience.

As a side note, I think it is also worth looking into the fact that some games one is already running tends to over time either by circumstance or design become a litter bit more Grimer. In this case I may be talking about the situation the characters are in and not really the setting itself.Or it could be the setting depending on just exactly how much has changed since the start of the campaign.

In other words Grim and Gritty is just a matter of intensity. An intensity  level that varies depending on the choices of the characters and Gm. Off course not all games go through this, but some do and they really did not start of as an excersise in GNG .

This of course brings into play the whole question of the rules. Perhaps rules although greatly enhancing the whole atmosphere of GnG is not really a necessary component in running Grim and Gritty games. Admitedly, this is a bit confusing, since one of the aspects of GnG is the lethality of the system.Perhaps I'm being a bit too cavalier in this whole post.

Regards,
David R

A G&G game does not necessarily involve greater PC death. What it should involve is swift and deadly combat - just like how combat really is.

Deadly combat doesn't mean more dead PCs. It means more PCs finding ways to avoid the possibility of serious injury or death, just like most people do. You only attack if you have a good tactical situation, are much more skilled than your opponents, etc. Even then something could fuck up. In real life, to draw a weapon on somebody who's similarly armed is to not know if you're going to be alive in a few minutes.

G&G characters fear death, and seek safer solutions to problems. There is a time for heroism - sometimes there ARE things worth fighting - and dying - for. But not every day.

In G&G games, sometimes it's really a better idea to just pay off the bandits and continue on safely. Is the money worth your life?

Quote from: Name LipsIn G&G games, sometimes it's really a better idea to just pay off the bandits and continue on safely. Is the money worth your life?

You have to ease long-time D&D players into that slowly.  D&D characters will slaughter bandits, skull fuck them, and count the loot, without breaking a sweat or having a moral qualm.

I suppose if you wanted to give them a painful learning experience, though, that might be the way to go.  :heh:

Quote from: CyberzombieYou have to ease long-time D&D players into that slowly.  D&D characters will slaughter bandits, skull fuck them, and count the loot, without breaking a sweat or having a moral qualm.

Hmm. I nevered eased them into anything. I throw it at them in all its glory, using NPCs up front to provide a warning.

Whenever D&D (only) players first experience my fantasy game, I've always seen something that I describe as "Battle Shock". It is actual wide-eye amazement with open jaws.

It's a very rare exception for a player to not be broken in by the end of that first night. Most get it right after the first in-game warning example.

One word sums up the nitty-gritty of grim'n'gritty to me: Warhammer. I'm sure other games have done it well, but if you want to know what grim'n'gritty feels like, you'll find it in spades under the Warhammer. :gnasher:

Quote from: gleichmanHmm. I nevered eased them into anything. I throw it at them in all its glory, using NPCs up front to provide a warning.

Whenever D&D (only) players first experience my fantasy game, I've always seen something that I describe as "Battle Shock". It is actual wide-eye amazement with open jaws.

It's a very rare exception for a player to not be broken in by the end of that first night. Most get it right after the first in-game warning example.

Upon consideration, that's probably the best way to do it.  I remember the first time I got shot whilst on a motorcycle in Shadowrun.  That taught me VERY quickly never to fight on a motorcycle ever, ever again.  :eek:

Actually, I never even had a motorcycle of a Shadowrun character again.  Best to be safe.