Sorry for such a long post. I didn't expect as much activity and there are lots of good points and ideas in the thread. A few things on which I wanted to request clarificaton:
1. No "mook" rules.
I'm reading this as no rules for pushover NPCs, but that doesn't seem to match the explanation. Marco, could you explain further?
In game terms, a much tighter advancement scheme than in most games.
Part of the discussion Krysst and I had involved games mechanics. I wasn't certain that game mechanics were involved in creating a grim and gritty atmosphere, but I'd be interested in hearing how tighter advancement might affect the atmosphere of the game.
How deadly are little concealable bits of metal that damn near every person the PC's meet are going to carry?
If daggers are to be feared, its grim and gritty.
2. Bleeding rules.
Deadliness, for me, is important in a GNG campaign, but not necessarily PC fatalities. I based my definition of GNG on settings in various media (books, comics and movies) that I considered GNG, and then trying to replicate that in an RPG. While I think that PCs must always fear weapons, I don't think deadly knives are a requirement of GNG. Knives in the hands of people who
really know how to use them, yes. Joe the Farmer with a sharp dagger, not so much.
As for bleeding rules, I honestly believe I could run a GNG campaign with d20 Modern RAW. Not my preference, but I think I could, and I believe that because I believe atmosphere is more improtant than game mechanics.
I don't know, is the deadliness/combat rules requirement something most people would agree with, or this an option for GNG overall?
OTOH, one game which meets both of this criteria is Paranoia. Which, in most (but not all) cases, is not something I would describe as Grim and Gritty in play.
So, maybe a serious theme or subject matter? If I understand Paranoia correctly, it is a type of satire. Is that correct?
Something else that works in there somewhere is the relative power level of the best at something compared to the reasonably competent. In other words, how heroic is it?
Krysst and I discussed this, and two of the examples that we were using as examples of GNG movies were 13th Warrior and Unleashed. In both of those the main character(s) were heroic, at least in the sense of being able to slaughter legions of foes. As such, I had posited that GNG could be heroic. What are your thoughts on that, given those examples, or would you agree that those are good examples of GNG?
4. Dismal; gloomy: a grim, rainy day.
5. Ferocious; savage: the grim advance of the pillaging army.
I think I would agree with both of those. That's kind of the sense I was going for with "Just Ain't Pretty"
grit·ty
1. Containing, covered with, or resembling grit.
2. Showing resolution and fortitude; plucky: a gritty decision.
Definitely definition 2 for RPGs.
I hadn't really thought of def 2. I think I was going for def 1, but in a figurative rather than literal sense, as in "Just Ain't Pretty." Def 2 is interesting, in that PCs would require resolution and fortitude to survive in a GNG setting. What is everyone's thoughts on that?