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Author Topic: Grim And Gritty - Just What is it?  (Read 2539 times)

FraserRonald

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Grim And Gritty - Just What is it?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2006, 07:02:35 PM »
Sorry for such a long post. I didn't expect as much activity and there are lots of good points and ideas in the thread. A few things on which I wanted to request clarificaton:

Quote from: Marco

1. No "mook" rules.


I'm reading this as no rules for pushover NPCs, but that doesn't seem to match the explanation. Marco, could you explain further?

Quote from: Dr_Avalanche

In game terms, a much tighter advancement scheme than in most games.


Part of the discussion Krysst and I had involved games mechanics. I wasn't certain that game mechanics were involved in creating a grim and gritty atmosphere, but I'd be interested in hearing how tighter advancement might affect the atmosphere of the game.

Quote from: Paka

How deadly are little concealable bits of metal that damn near every person the PC's meet are going to carry?

If daggers are to be feared, its grim and gritty.


Quote from: Marco

2. Bleeding rules.


Deadliness, for me, is important in a GNG campaign, but not necessarily PC fatalities. I based my definition of GNG on settings in various media (books, comics and movies) that I considered GNG, and then trying to replicate that in an RPG. While I think that PCs must always fear weapons, I don't think deadly knives are a requirement of GNG. Knives in the hands of people who really know how to use them, yes. Joe the Farmer with a sharp dagger, not so much.

As for bleeding rules, I honestly believe I could run a GNG campaign with d20 Modern RAW. Not my preference, but I think I could, and I believe that because I believe atmosphere is more improtant than game mechanics.

I don't know, is the deadliness/combat rules requirement something most people would agree with, or this an option for GNG overall?

Quote from: Roger
OTOH, one game which meets both of this criteria is Paranoia.  Which, in most (but not all) cases, is not something I would describe as Grim and Gritty in play.


So, maybe a serious theme or subject matter? If I understand Paranoia correctly, it is a type of satire. Is that correct?

Quote from: Nicephorus
Something else that works in there somewhere is the relative power level of the best at something compared to the reasonably competent.  In other words, how heroic is it?


Krysst and I discussed this, and two of the examples that we were using as examples of GNG movies were 13th Warrior and Unleashed. In both of those the main character(s) were heroic, at least in the sense of being able to slaughter legions of foes. As such, I had posited that GNG could be heroic. What are your thoughts on that, given those examples, or would you agree that those are good examples of GNG?

Quote from: flyingmice

   4. Dismal; gloomy: a grim, rainy day.
   5. Ferocious; savage: the grim advance of the pillaging army.
I think I would agree with both of those. That's kind of the sense I was going for with "Just Ain't Pretty"

Quote from: flyingmice

grit·ty
   1. Containing, covered with, or resembling grit.
   2. Showing resolution and fortitude; plucky: a gritty decision.

Definitely definition 2 for RPGs.


I hadn't really thought of def 2. I think I was going for def 1, but in a figurative rather than literal sense, as in "Just Ain't Pretty." Def 2 is interesting, in that PCs would require resolution and fortitude to survive in a GNG setting. What is everyone's thoughts on that?

khyron1144

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Grim And Gritty - Just What is it?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2006, 07:24:45 PM »
Quote from: FraserRonald

1. Shades of Grey
Morality is not clear cut good and evil, black and white, or chaos and law depending on your cup of grog. The villains are not irredeemably evil—they have positive aspects. The heroes may not be anywhere close to good, but even if they consider themselves good, it's not the absolute, do no wrong good or even philosophically inclined good of an alignment system.
2. Just ain't pretty
This isn't a golden age. The world doesn't live together in harmony. If there is a powerful empire, it's on the wane, with the corrupt bureaucrats running the show. If there ever was a magical age when people's lives were easy, that's long since past. There's crime, disease, and poverty, and they are all common. Too common. There is wealth, but it's held by a very small portion of the population. That same small portion of the population has the power, and they aren't very concerned about the “common good.”
Thoughts?



Are you familiar with either Michael Moorcock's Elric novels or the Chaosium Elric! RPG?  
I think it shows at least some of these aspects, although there is an alignment system that rewards adherance to one philosophy but it makes being a good guy, a bad guy, or taking a middle road equally appealing.

Mechanically Pendragon can be gritty because it takes nigh onto forever to recover from hit point damage.  That's another Chaosium one.  Come to think of it- Call of Cthulhu isn't that cheerful either.  I don't know anything about Runequest or the long-extinct Elf Quest and Thieve's World games they published, but it's quite possible that Chaosium is THE company for Grim and gritty.
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David R

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Grim And Gritty - Just What is it?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2006, 07:57:10 PM »
Quote from: flyingmice
grim  
   1. Unrelenting; rigid.
   2. Uninviting or unnerving in aspect; forbidding: “undoubtedly the grimmest part of him was his iron claw” (J.M. Barrie).
 

I feel that these two best describe what Grim means to me in RPGs. Something about the definitions you have provided just feels right.

Quote
grit·ty   Audio pronunciation of "gritty" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (grt)
adj. grit·ti·er, grit·ti·est

      2. Showing resolution and fortitude; plucky: a gritty decision.


This part I imagine has more to do with the way how the players interact with the setting.

As for Grim and Gritty systems - I suppose realistic although provocative a term would be the word I am looking for - only because I reckon combat would be more lethal and unpredictable as it is in reality. By this I mean combat would take into account factors not really found in high fantasy games - what factors? I suppose stuff like damage - the players are very easily hurt. Damage recovery - the players heal slowly etc

Regards,
David R.

Marco

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Grim And Gritty - Just What is it?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2006, 08:23:32 PM »
Mook rules are, to my meaning, rules where unimportant NPC's use different combat rules than important ones so as to be far, far less of a threat and to signify that the fight is just a chance to show off rather than a real challenge.

-Marco
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flyingmice

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Grim And Gritty - Just What is it?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2006, 11:45:01 PM »
Quote from: David R
I feel that these two best describe what Grim means to me in RPGs. Something about the definitions you have provided just feels right.

Y'know, thinking about it more, all four definitions fit in different ways.

Quote from: David R
This part I imagine has more to do with the way how the players interact with the setting.

Yep - that was what I was thinking at the time.

Quote from: David R
As for Grim and Gritty systems - I suppose realistic although provocative a term would be the word I am looking for - only because I reckon combat would be more lethal and unpredictable as it is in reality. By this I mean combat would take into account factors not really found in high fantasy games - what factors? I suppose stuff like damage - the players are very easily hurt. Damage recovery - the players heal slowly etc

Regards,
David R.

A lot of these points make their way into my own mental map, including these.
I agree with Marco (as usual) About the "no mooks" bit. Combat should always be dangerous. As for deadliness, that's not necessary. The possibility to be dadly, though, is. It's the element of risk. As Paka says, a dagger should be dangerous. As far as characters slaying mountains of foes, that doesn't fit in my mental map. That's just too over the top to be gritty. There's no risk - the mooks thing again. There is no heroism without informed risk - you know it is very dangerous yet you choose to do it anyway. Relative power is important, and is an extention again of the mooks thing. Bruce Willis in Die Hard is grim and gritty.

That's my take anyway.

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David R

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Grim And Gritty - Just What is it?
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2006, 01:30:33 AM »
Quote from: Marco
Mook rules are, to my meaning, rules where unimportant NPC's use different combat rules than important ones so as to be far, far less of a threat and to signify that the fight is just a chance to show off rather than a real challenge.

-Marco


I would just like to add, and I'm not talking about specific mook rules per se but rather the way how I use mooks in my game is that there are other dangers that they pose then just a non-lethal encounter.

Firstly encounters with mooks although most of the time non lethal, does have the ability to wear down the pcs - sort of soften them up for the main showdown. So there is that tactical aspect.Also these fights sometimes slow down the pcs who are chasing the Big Bad etc. (Out of character discussion -"Mooks. We hate those guys")

Also during these encounters shit happens so to speak. Important items break, they loose their way, get separated,run out of ammo etc. Now as stated the mooks themselves generally pose no danger to the pcs but the way how the encounter plays out(always random I might add) does cause problems/confusion to the pcs.

Yeah, I'm straying away from the general definiton but for all my games, mooks one way or another have managed to worm their way in.

Regards,
David R

David R

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Grim And Gritty - Just What is it?
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2006, 01:42:46 AM »
Quote from: flyingmice
I agree with Marco (as usual) About the "no mooks" bit. Combat should always be dangerous. As for deadliness, that's not necessary. The possibility to be dadly, though, is. It's the element of risk. As Paka says, a dagger should be dangerous. As far as characters slaying mountains of foes, that doesn't fit in my mental map. That's just too over the top to be gritty. There's no risk - the mooks thing again. There is no heroism without informed risk - you know it is very dangerous yet you choose to do it anyway. Relative power is important, and is an extention again of the mooks thing. Bruce Willis in Die Hard is grim and gritty.


 My take on the whole mook bit is in another post. But just a clarification. When I use mooks I don't use them in a mountain of bodies way. There is no swarm. It's kinda of like in Die Hard where Bruce engages with  three or four enemies at one time. He does not get killed but they sure chip away at him. Now I realise that you could use standard rules for this but sometimes (in my games at least) mook rules are kind of like the trailer for the movie to come. Can you dig what I'm trying to say?

By the way, Die Hard is indeed Grim and Gritty...and Rockin'.

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David R.

ColonelHardisson

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Grim And Gritty - Just What is it?
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2006, 12:06:13 PM »
I get the feeling that the "gritty" part of "grim 'n' gritty" doesn't have a universally agreed-upon definition in this context. I don't think most who use it feel "gritty" is meant to imply pluckiness on the part of the heroes in such a setting, but mean "gritty" in the "covered with grit" way. Not literally covered with grit, but a setting in which nothing is clean, literally and figuratively.
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ColonelHardisson

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Grim And Gritty - Just What is it?
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2006, 12:13:03 PM »
Quote from: David R
By the way, Die Hard is indeed Grim and Gritty...and Rockin'.


Love Die Hard, but I just can't say it is Grim 'n' Gritty. It's very cinematic, in the way people use the term in reference to RPGs. Die Hard seems like a perfect fit for a game like d20 Modern, which is a more cinematic game. A Grim 'n' Gritty movie would be something like, oh, let's say One False Move, or a number of films from the late 60s/early 70s, like The French Connection (although even it shades over to the "cinematic" side of the spectrum). Other examples would be more fact-based stuff like In Cold Blood or the Onion Field, or more fictional stuff like The Taking of Pelham 1,2,3.
"Illegitimis non carborundum." - General Joseph "Vinegar Joe" Stilwell

4e definitely has an Old School feel. If you disagree, cool. I won't throw any hyperbole out to prove the point.

gleichman

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Grim And Gritty - Just What is it?
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2006, 12:20:53 PM »
Quote from: ColonelHardisson
Love Die Hard, but I just can't say it is Grim 'n' Gritty.


I'm going to have to agree with Herr Colonel on this one although I understand why one would want to call it GNG.

Frankly as long as something values good over evil (which the Die Hard movies do), I can't call it GNG- even if the hero loses.
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ColonelHardisson

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Grim And Gritty - Just What is it?
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2006, 12:25:26 PM »
Quote from: gleichman
I'm going to have to agree with Herr Colonel on this one although I understand why one would want to call it GNG.

Frankly as long as something values good over evil (which the Die Hard movies do), I can't call it GNG- even if the hero loses.


I can understand why some might think Die Hard shades over into Grim 'n' Gritty, but I think a good way to judge as to whether it is Grim 'n' Gritty is to consider whether you ever felt the hero really might get killed.

Another example of Grim 'n' Gritty in the movies could be Superfly. The original Walking Tall would be another example. All in my opinion, of course.
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4e definitely has an Old School feel. If you disagree, cool. I won't throw any hyperbole out to prove the point.

Yamo

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Grim And Gritty - Just What is it?
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2006, 12:40:01 PM »
I would say:

1) No objective good or evil, although almost everybody probably thinks of themselves as "good."

2) All actions have consequences. There's very much a "live by the sword, die by the sword" feel.

3) Protagonists aren't special. They follow the same rules as everybody else. In RPG's, this is best reflected by the absence of both "mook" rules and metagame mechanics like Drama Points or Hero Points that let PCs succeed automatically at tasks or evade the consequences of bad rolls.
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David R

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Grim And Gritty - Just What is it?
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2006, 12:46:33 PM »
Quote from: ColonelHardisson

Another example of Grim 'n' Gritty in the movies could be Superfly. The original Walking Tall would be another example. All in my opinion, of course.
Quote


Okay how about the Korean flick "Oldboy" - that would qualify as both Grim and Gritty- in my opinion off course.

Regards,
David R

ColonelHardisson

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Grim And Gritty - Just What is it?
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2006, 01:09:04 PM »
Quote from: David R
Okay how about the Korean flick "Oldboy" - that would qualify as both Grim and Gritty- in my opinion off course.

Regards,
David R


I'm not familiar with that movie.
"Illegitimis non carborundum." - General Joseph "Vinegar Joe" Stilwell

4e definitely has an Old School feel. If you disagree, cool. I won't throw any hyperbole out to prove the point.

David R

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Grim And Gritty - Just What is it?
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2006, 01:14:57 PM »
Quote
I'm not familiar with that movie.


Okay, "The Wild Bunch" - Grim and Gritty - Peckinpah-style

Regards,
David R