Quote from: Jaeger on May 23, 2024, 04:49:31 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 23, 2024, 04:30:14 PMRemains unclear if that was an official WOTC thing. Showed up on ENWorld, spread to Twitter. Could be real.

You just can't help yourself, ROTFL!!!

What, did you hit quote and leave your screen open for a half hour or something? I changed what I wrote almost immediately - well before your time stamp.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Forgotten_Realms/comments/1cz5zc3/hasbro_ceo_meeting_follow_up/?utm_source=embedv2&utm_medium=post_embed&utm_content=whitespace

Hasbro CEO Meeting - Follow Up

Last week I asked the FR community what I should ask Chris Cox, CEO of Hasbro, in a small group meeting I had with him this week, and received many thoughtful suggestions. As promised, following up with how it went.

Knowing nothing about him before this meeting, I'd say he completely won me over. While most of the meeting focused on many of Hasbro's other properties, during which time he admitted to being a huge nerd and loving the X-Men '97 series, there was a brief moment where everyone's questions had been answered and I jumped in asking if he knew of the Forgotten Realms, explaining i was a super-fan. He said of course, loves the setting and will be playing that night with friends in a campaign set in Kara-Tur. Was very interested to hear the feedback from this community, and I basically said we want more. Specifically I raised the concerns of those in LatAm who had trouble getting their hands on Spanish-language printed books, to which he acknowledged and said it had to do with some distribution issues with former licensing agreements in that region (though didn't commit to fixing it), and I also suggested he make the out-of-print novels available for download (he asked, Drizzt? and i said no, like all of them, Harpers, etc.), to which he said that's worth thinking about. He said expect more video games to be coming that are set in FR (said they won't make mobile games themselves but could partner with someone to do it), and that he personally would like to see Kara-Tur explored further. That's great I said, but we also want more of the Western realms, and he said they just released a Vecna adventure, i quickly cut him off saying Vecna is not part of the realms, and he said yes well the adventure begins in the realms and is more a nod to the multi-verse.

At this point the CFO jumped in to point out that literally nobody else in the meeting understood a word of what we were talking about (6 or 7 people in total i think) and there was a good laugh. The meeting ended there and on the way out both execs said they were very happy to meet a super fan in one of these investor meetings, apparently it had never happened before. Not sure if any of this will make a difference but it certainly did no harm, and i think it's likely i'll be able to do this meeting again next year.

Thanks again to everyone who provided thoughts and suggestions, fwiw I think the brand could be in a lot worse hands than Chris Cox, who seems to genuinely love FR.

Quote from: Corolinth on May 23, 2024, 12:52:17 PMUnfortunately, you're praying to an angry and vengeful god that you've clearly offended somehow, because that's exactly who's got their hands on Greyhawk right now.

Well those were certainly all words.....

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 23, 2024, 06:34:39 AMEven just taking it from a purely commercial point of view, It'd be in WOTC's best interest to differentiate Greyhawk from Forgotten Realms, because unless you're pretty intimate with both settings, they don't look all that different. I mean, this may be hearsay, but didn't TSR seek out Ed Greenwood to make FR an official setting precisely because they were on the outs with Gygax and wanted to replace Greyhawk? You can't really blame a newer player for looking at Greyhawk and just seeing a less famous Forgotten Realms with less material published for it.

They are totally different. FR is high fantasy throw in everything and then throw in some more. Greyhawk is more mid to low fantasy. Set after a magical nuclear war. Theres alot more wilderness and alot less civilization.

According to notes TSR kept the rights to Greyhawk and put out a Greyhawk book for 2e. There were also a few more novels set there. Gygax retained the rights to very little of the setting, just some characters if recall right.

Quote from: Omega on May 24, 2024, 03:45:02 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 23, 2024, 06:34:39 AMEven just taking it from a purely commercial point of view, It'd be in WOTC's best interest to differentiate Greyhawk from Forgotten Realms, because unless you're pretty intimate with both settings, they don't look all that different. I mean, this may be hearsay, but didn't TSR seek out Ed Greenwood to make FR an official setting precisely because they were on the outs with Gygax and wanted to replace Greyhawk? You can't really blame a newer player for looking at Greyhawk and just seeing a less famous Forgotten Realms with less material published for it.

They are totally different. FR is high fantasy throw in everything and then throw in some more. Greyhawk is more mid to low fantasy. Set after a magical nuclear war. Theres alot more wilderness and alot less civilization.

According to notes TSR kept the rights to Greyhawk and put out a Greyhawk book for 2e. There were also a few more novels set there. Gygax retained the rights to very little of the setting, just some characters if recall right.

They're both medieval-ish fantasy settings with elves, dwarfs, halflings, gnomes, knights, wizards, the same magic system, many of the same monsters, and close enough to the same cosmology. Reductive maybe, but that's how a large percentage (possibly the majority) of the D&D audience looks at it. Players just want to know what kind of character they can play, and DMs are either going to buy modules or insert their own scenarios. In actual play, a lot of the lore and nuance gets lost. The level of fantasy from low to high is always going to be determined more by the rules than anything else. If you run Greyhawk with as-written 5e, it'll be just as high fantasy as Forgotten Realms currently is.

As far as TSR vs. Gygax, I didn't mean they didn't have the rights to Greyhawk, so much as they made an active choice to sideline it in favor of Forgotten Realms being the flagship setting for 2nd edition.

Also, lots of people are citing Greyhawk as a post-apocalyptic setting. Is that original to it, or is it just after the Greyhawk Wars and the Rising From the Ashes set?

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 25, 2024, 01:38:31 PMIn actual play, a lot of the lore and nuance gets lost. The level of fantasy from low to high is always going to be determined more by the rules than anything else. If you run Greyhawk with as-written 5e, it'll be just as high fantasy as Forgotten Realms currently is.

^This^

5e neu-greyhawk will have to accomodate all the D&Disms in the three core  books. Especially all the available PC races.

There will be little to no curation for the setting, with other small retcons and "throwaway" inclusiveness added as Wotc sees fit.

In actual play any remaining differences in tone and lore will just be a distinction without a difference.

The notion that Wotc is just going to use Greyhawk as a bare bones example setting in the DMG is literally the best case scenario that fans of OG Greyhawk can hope for.

Gygax's Greyhawk was a post-apocalyptic setting because it is set after the Suel-Banklunish war that led to the Invoked Devastation and the Rain of Colorless Fire that eradicated the Suel Imperium. This devastation created the vast Sea of Dust to the west of the Flanaess. In addition, artifacts like Heward's Mystical Organ hint that the former age was a period of higher magic and mystical technology.

The Greyhawk Wars were not an apocalypse as such, although I think Carl Sargent made major mistakes in making Iuz's victory too complete. From the Ashes was, at least, in line with what Gygax was hinting at in Dragon magazine.

In my view early WOTC under Sean Reynolds ruined much of the feel of Greyhawk by making it too much like the FR - for example, every village seemed to be fully lit by continual light spells due to the presence of a retired 12th level wizard. Some of Reynold's stuff was good, but most of it felt too FR and wrong for Greyhawk.

Clearly WOTC have no inclination to do Greyhawk in the Gygaxian style.

Quote from: El-V on May 25, 2024, 05:50:37 PMIn my view early WOTC under Sean Reynolds ruined much of the feel of Greyhawk by making it too much like the FR - for example, every village seemed to be fully lit by continual light spells due to the presence of a retired 12th level wizard. Some of Reynold's stuff was good, but most of it felt too FR and wrong for Greyhawk.

Clearly WOTC have no inclination to do Greyhawk in the Gygaxian style.

Post-Gygax TSR did that to about every setting eventually. BX's Known World exploded into Mystara where every hex was filled in and the magic gradually escalated. Forgotten Realms became increasingly higher fantasy and more and more of the map filled in. Greyhawk, even Gamma World and Zebulonns Guide.

DMG cover



From the interview with the art director:

"Going with that theme we have multiple layers of villains and monsters on this cover, from the lowly skeletons or "grunts" that you may face often- emerging from the water after a necromantic spell was cast, to the mid-level mini-bosses in classic characters like Skylla and Warduke (who have been featured in past editions, toys, and most recently in Wild Beyond the Witchlight), up to an iconic campaign level villain in Venger (from the cartoon series) who is very capable of taking the spotlight for himself."

"But of course, behind all of that (in classic D&D style) we have a lurking Dracolich who may have actually been the mastermind working from behind the scenes all along, and is just beyond view."

"We wanted this to be something that would let players SEE the options that this book presents them. Yes, DM'ing is more than just monsters and combat, but it's a really fun part of being a DM"

"The back cover has an ancient Mind Flayer temple, with an adventuring party in the distance exploring this huge dungeon. We wanted a scene that would show that sometimes D&D is about exploration, but also wanted to add a bit of mystery and storytelling with some of the things in the foreground and background.!"

Quote from: Omega on May 26, 2024, 11:17:48 PMPost-Gygax TSR did that to about every setting eventually. BX's Known World exploded into Mystara where every hex was filled in and the magic gradually escalated.

And it sucks, honestly. While I LIKE Mystara, the world implied in BX, B1, and B2 is definitely a "points of light" setting for sure. I had all sorts of weird thoughts about Wereskalot when it turns out it's just a lame halfling village. They kinda fucked up the frontier setting and turned it into a veritable metropolis with an actual magocracy.

Oh well...

Quote from: Brad on May 28, 2024, 06:41:02 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 26, 2024, 11:17:48 PMPost-Gygax TSR did that to about every setting eventually. BX's Known World exploded into Mystara where every hex was filled in and the magic gradually escalated.

And it sucks, honestly. While I LIKE Mystara, the world implied in BX, B1, and B2 is definitely a "points of light" setting for sure. I had all sorts of weird thoughts about Wereskalot when it turns out it's just a lame halfling village. They kinda fucked up the frontier setting and turned it into a veritable metropolis with an actual magocracy.

Oh well...

Part of why I skipped BECMI till years later. It would have been better as a new world. Not to mention its a MAMMOTH hollow world. Its what? The size of Jupiter?

Alt DMG cover is Lloth

Quote from: Mistwell on May 30, 2024, 04:25:16 PMAlt DMG cover is Lloth

I thought the purpose of the alternate cover was to make you want to buy it, too?

That cover is trash.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 30, 2024, 04:58:12 PMI thought the purpose of the alternate cover was to make you want to buy it, too?

That cover is trash.

Grognads bitched about Elmore replacing Easely and Otus. Now we get this.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 30, 2024, 04:58:12 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 30, 2024, 04:25:16 PMAlt DMG cover is Lloth

I thought the purpose of the alternate cover was to make you want to buy it, too?

That cover is trash.

I prefer the primary cover but a bunch of people seem over the moon about this cover so I shrug. Different people, different tastes. To me this is boring.