Okay, here I am speaking of the version of Greyhawk as published by TSR and WotC and in its current form (though ignore the stupid ass "From the Ashes" world war as much as humanly possible).  I don't know much about Gygax's original vision for the city, so it doesn't enter into my idea here.  


Greyhawk is described as a free city, secretly run by its Thieves' Guild.  Cool enough, as far as that goes.  However, I don't think that they take it *nearly* far enough, given the magical nature of the world, especially in 3e.

The problem I have is that most, if not all, of their activities take place in Greyhawk itself.  This is problematical for several reasons.  First off, it isn't that big.  Second, the thieves own many front operations and outright legitimate businesses -- so their potential targets are drastically cut down.  Third, and perhaps most importantly, a large portion of Greyhawk's population are adventurers.  Profitable, surely, but too dangerous for day to day thievery.

While there are plenty of marks for some thievery in the city itself -- particularly from merchants, or petty theft from travelling adventurers -- it doesn't really seem plausible that a whole industry could operate just within the city itself.

However, in a magical world like Greyhawk, rapid or instantaneous travel is well within the reach of high-level thieves.

Because conflict makes for interesting RPG sessions, I'd set the timeline at the point where the rest of the world is just starting to realize that these thiefly commando raids are coming from Greyhawk.  They don't yet realize that the whole city is a den of thieves.  The PCs could either play "good guys" investigating the thievery, or "bad guys" trying to keep one step ahead of retribution.  Either one would be fun.  

Comments?  Thoughts?  Rotten tomatoes?

This is a weird recommendation, but:

Saga of the Old City.

It's the first novel of the multi-volumn Gord the Rogue series written by Gary Gygax back in the 80s. It's set largely in Greyhawk proper and deals extensively with the criminal underworld.

It's not a great novel (reads like a mediocre Fritz Leiber imitation), but it's pretty-much the final world on the criminal character of Greyhawk City, coming as it does straight from the horse's mouth.

Used copies are hella cheap on eBay and Amazon.

I have that *somewhere*, but I'm not sure where.  I'll have to dig 'em out at some point.

I recomend tracking down the 1st ed supplement Lankmahr, City of Adventure. It does a good job of simulating a large city. I generally ignore what TSR & WoTC has done with the City of Greyhawk.

Greyhawk expanded its territory in later supplements, starting with "From the Ashes," actually. By the time 3e was rumored to be coming, Greyhawk had become a nation in its own right, in supplements like The Adventure Begins and the Players Guide. A way to deal with this is to assume that the Thieves Guild eventually had such control over Greyhawk that it "went legit" and switched over to actually openly running the city and many of its largest businesses. That left actual thieves, the guys who made their living as criminals, as renegades from the Thieves Guild, stealing from their former bosses. This would leave Greyhawk as being a battleground between the "city fathers" and what could be a nascent Thieves Guild separate from the original.

To dovetail this in with your concept, Greyhawk's Thieves Guild - the original one, the one that took over governing Greyhawk in fact if not in technicality - would set up cells in other cities using teleportation and the like. The guys who were left out in the cold could be getting wind to this, and would be trying to play each side against each other. That is, they'd want the "city fathers" pre-occupied with "official" guild activities in other cities so the renegades could ply their trade in Greyhawk with more breathing room, and would leak info to other cities about Greyhawk's activities so as to put the heat on the "official" expeditionary thieves.

Those are all really cool ideas.  And pretty realistic, given that Greyhawk's thieves tend heavily to the chaotic alignments.  I could see most of them grumbling when the main guild goes legit.

Thank you!  :bow:

Quote from: CyberzombieBecause conflict makes for interesting RPG sessions, I'd set the timeline at the point where the rest of the world is just starting to realize that these thiefly commando raids are coming from Greyhawk.  They don't yet realize that the whole city is a den of thieves.  The PCs could either play "good guys" investigating the thievery, or "bad guys" trying to keep one step ahead of retribution.  Either one would be fun.  

Comments?  Thoughts?  Rotten tomatoes?

I don't know much about Greyhawk, so I may be way of base here. If you go for the good guys mode perhaps you can have a small band of  altruistic city officials who want to take back control of the city and the pcs are a bunch of ex-thieves who are recruited to take the fight to the thieves guild using any means necessary. It could be an incredible clusterfuck of backstabbings, frame ups, street fights which could spread far and wide to other cities esp if the pcs are not the only members of this elite squad. Also the motives of these officials could become suspect, because you know if power corrupts so could the quest for power.

If the pcs are the bad guys, perhaps they could be the enforcers of the guild. They could also be the dudes who handle tricky situations that normaly crop up in this particular field of activity. They could be involved in sanctioning other thieves, settling disputes, and generally taking care of business - the hard kind.

Like I said, don't know much about Greyhawk, so the ideas may be off base.

Regards,
David R

A constant stream of good-two shoes adventurers coming back from Dungeon X loaded down with good stuff.  Yes, they are dangerous but sometimes the cut is worth the risk.

There must be bards who do nothing but size up parties, find out what dungeon they are returning from, try to find out what they are hiding, what inn they are staying at, etc.

This isn't even to mention the constant stream of treasure and gold to support this adventurer's economy.  Picture the folks who make the magic items and how much they have lying around and the difficulty in moving it around.

Sure the guilt gets its cut but the players are hungry and willing to break some laws, even guild laws to get their own cut.

I'd want the players to be up and coming thieves (of all classes) who see adventuring proper as a mug's game but taking from adventurers, who are essentially nothing but thieves themselves, a decent way to make a living.

Yeah, lets of double-crosses, because once you have stolen the Sunsword from the Paladin, how do you move it?

Fences pushing the players towards certain items, crime bosses who will allow the players to take whatever else they want from the new party in town so long as they get the wizard's wand.

An orc tribe could hire the players to bring back a powerful religious artifact.

In a game like that, the streets are the dungeon and the adventurers are the monsters.

Hope that helps.

David, Paka -- both good ideas.  

I'd have to look at Greyhawk again to see if it's even viable to have internal opposition.  I suppose I could just put it in there in any case, but it seems like the Thieves' Guild had a lock on things.  Be good to double check, though.

Paka -- fencing a lot of adventurer items would be a pain in the ass, especially if a good alignment is involved.  Neutral and evil people would be much less likely to ask questions about the origin of an item.

I like that line: "The streets are the dungeon and the adventurers are the monsters."  That would make a great hook.