Outside the mythic, probably-never-to-be-seen Castle Greyhawk, and the well-documented exploits of the original Lake Geneva group.

How do you feel Greyhawk weighs in as a D&D campaign setting?

More to the point, what published material on the setting do you feel is worth getting, if any?

I'm particularly curious about post-Gary (1988-1994) published material. Wikipedia (for what it's worth) mentions WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins as a "killer dungeon" and that definitely piqued my interest. And of course, I'd love to know what people think about the Greyhawk Wars "reimagining" of the setting.

Quote from: The Butcher;639780And of course, I'd love to know what people think about the Greyhawk Wars "reimagining" of the setting.

Following this thread because this topic kinda-sorta interests me too.

Based on a pdf skim of 'From the Ashes', I wished Carl Sargent had modified the setting a lot further. Parameters were imposed, however, by the Greyhawk Wars game.

The latter game is pretty good, from what I've heard and whom I trust. But really, this shit should have been done for Battlesystem well before--- because, really, the Greyhawk Folio and boxed set had a shitload of troop data. Not relevant to 80s post-wargame, post-Chainmail, post-Swords-&-Spells TSR scene.

I've wanted to run City of Skulls and Iuz the Evil, like, forever. I probably will, sometime this year. The Marklands is something I've used a ton, to the point that I really should buy a backup copy for when I wear this one out.

In many ways the From the Ashes set and later supplements works better today than in the past, since so many home campaigns had previously diverged from the developments that were defined in From the Ashes.  It made it a contortionist act to find a use for much of the From the Ashes content at the time for many.  Today, one can take up Ashes and later supplements fresh.

Dana mentions some of the better ones, that's for sure.  Carl Sargent was the lead on From the Ashes, as well as the supplements City of Skulls, Iuz the Evil, Marklands and Ivid the Undying.  

Carl's Night Below from TSR is designed to be a part of Greyhawk as much as either Forgotten Realms or Mystara. It is a strong choice for inclusion in a new Greyhawk campaign, especially with From the Ashes.  One could add Carl's gazetteer for Mystera Shadow Elves to Night Below too.  It is nice to have City of Greyhawk with From the Ashes, since there is a lot of reference to the city set in Ashes.

Carl also was the lead for Warhammer City, Middenheim: City of the White Wolf, and it would be excellent to place as Rauxes in The Great Kingdom of Oerth.  One other suggestion is adding Carl's Warhammer campaign Empire in Flames to follow-up on Warhammer City, which sets up a second Flanaess War.  This campaign set-up would further define the From the Ashes content as an interwar period. So, some suggestions by author that one may add to a new Greyhawk campaign using From the Ashes as the base.

Quote from: FASERIP;639783Parameters were imposed, however, by the Greyhawk Wars game.

The latter game is pretty good, from what I've heard and whom I trust. But really, this shit should have been done for Battlesystem well before--- because, really, the Greyhawk Folio and boxed set had a shitload of troop data. Not relevant to 80s post-wargame, post-Chainmail, post-Swords-&-Spells TSR scene.

I'm sorry, but you heard wrong.  Greyhawk Wars is a terrible, crappy, waste of time.  Basically any other wargame is existence is better.

Quote from: The Butcher;639780Outside the mythic, probably-never-to-be-seen Castle Greyhawk, and the well-documented exploits of the original Lake Geneva group.

How do you feel Greyhawk weighs in as a D&D campaign setting?

More to the point, what published material on the setting do you feel is worth getting, if any?

I'm particularly curious about post-Gary (1988-1994) published material. Wikipedia (for what it's worth) mentions WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins as a "killer dungeon" and that definitely piqued my interest. And of course, I'd love to know what people think about the Greyhawk Wars "reimagining" of the setting.

The Greyhawk Wars didn't really reimagine the setting.  Basically everything that happened in the Wars was following through with the conflicts that Gygax had already set up.  The primary problem with them is that more loose ends were closed off than were opened up.  For instance, the Scarlet Brotherhood is a secret organization cloaked in the shadows with a mysterious agenda in Gygax Greyhawk.  The DM has lots of things he can do with that.  Post-Wars, we know the Scarlet Brotherhood's agenda and they are no longer a secret organization.  Less room for the DM to work his magic.

That said, anything with Sargent's name on it is quality material and well worth perusing.  

WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins is big with something like 26 levels.  Not sure what 'killer dungeon' means, but it is not overly deadly or anything.  I would consider it of somewhat lesser quality than Temple of Elemental Evil, and it has crappy maps, but overall well worth having.  I've never been that much on big dungeons, so I've only run players through a couple levels.  The vast majority of it has never seen use at my table.

Pre-wars Greyhawk is good vanilla. What differentiates it from the Realms is that the default alignment is a sort of militant neutrality, and while there are a lot of high-powered NPCs, they are occupied with their own concerns. The macro level is sketched out, and it gives you some interesting conflicts and potential allies/opponents/points of interest, but the rest is mostly up to the GM. And then there is some less relevant detail like notes on climate and fantasy trees. But again, these are very thin booklets, and the main thing is actually Darlene Pekul's big, colourful maps.

From the Ashes tries to turn GH into a grim, more serious post-war setting... but doesn't quite succeed at convincing you the world has been through some sort of harrowing experience. I am not familiar with the supplements.

Not a fan of Greyhawk Ruins. It's big, but this size doesn't bring it to some higher plane of quality, it's just a big 'meh' dungeon. The City of Greyhawk, as published, is too candyland and not enough soot-covered walls and thieves guilds (while Gary's novels, as I hear, amount to bad Lankhmar pastiche with serious Mary Sue issues).

If anyone would like to check out one of the supplements to From the Ashes, Ivid the Undying was released for free by Wizards a while back for free distribution, since it was never printed.  It is still available at acaeum.  The file at acaeum was formatted to appear as it would have been printed.  

Module WGRX Ivid the Undying by Carl Sargent

"Ivid the Undying" by Carl Sargent.  Never released to the public, this module was supposedly on the verge of publication when the project was yanked.  The text of the module was released by Wizards of the Coast and is freely distributable.  This particular version has been extensively edited and re-formatted by William Allman, where he has painstakingly created a well-laid-out .pdf (Adobe Acrobat) file from the original text.  The result is quite close to what the finished module may have looked like -- it even incorporates the maps into the module text, and features the planned cover art!" The Acaeum Library

WG8 The Fate of Istus is useful if one plans to run Ivid the Undying as a background, since Istus has a map of Rauxes that is referenced in Ivid, though it is not necessary.

You know, I first went to campaigns based upon From the Ashes, since the set span of time from 1988 to 1994, but it is as Melan mentions. From the Ashes does have its issues. I mean, my first impulse to suggest elements from Carl’s other work is an intended indicator.

 If one extends that span of time out a bit, I would actually suggest either Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins or The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. Of these two I favor Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins. Roger E Moore is a clear and succinct writer, and the book does a good job of making sense of the previous content without strangling the life out of the setting. Since Roger is a succinct writer, he is able to describe the City of Greyhawk and the over-all world in this one book. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer is a statistic free reference that could be used with Ars Magica as easily as Sword & Sorcery. It is perhaps the most system free Greyhawk reference ever produced, beside just getting information off the internet.

You know, I first went to campaigns based upon From the Ashes, since the set span of time from 1988 to 1994, but it is as Melan mentions.  From the Ashes does have its issues.  I mean, my first impulse to suggest elements from Carl's other work is an intended indicator.  

If one extends that span of time out a bit, I would actually suggest either Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins or The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.  Of these two I favor Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins.  Roger E Moore is a clear and succinct writer, and the book does a good job of making sense of the previous content without strangling the life out of the setting.  Since Roger is a succinct writer, he is able to describe the City of Greyhawk and the over-all world in this one book.  The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer is a statistic free reference that could be used with Ars Magica as easily as Sword & Sorcery.  It is perhaps the most system free Greyhawk reference ever produced, beside just getting information off the internet.

Is the 1987 late 1e/pre-2e Greyhawk Adventures book any good?

Quote from: Melan;639814Not a fan of Greyhawk Ruins. It's big, but this size doesn't bring it to some higher plane of quality, it's just a big 'meh' dungeon.

As for Greyhawk Ruins, what makes it "meh"? What do you feel is missing from it?

Quote from: Melan;639814The City of Greyhawk, as published, is too candyland and not enough soot-covered walls and thieves guilds (while Gary's novels, as I hear, amount to bad Lankhmar pastiche with serious Mary Sue issues).

So, exactly like the Forgotten Realms.

Quote from: The Butcher;639780How do you feel Greyhawk weighs in as a D&D campaign setting?

I think it's the de facto standard D&D setting (pretty much a perfect match for 1e AD&D).  I like the setting's feel for D&D.

QuoteMore to the point, what published material on the setting do you feel is worth getting, if any?

The original folio or the (1983?) boxed set are both good.  The map is outstanding.  The descriptions are enough to give you what you need to know without being too much detail.  You can digest it easily and have plenty of room to make it your own.

QuoteI'm particularly curious about post-Gary (1988-1994) published material.

Most of that is not so good, IMO.  

QuoteWikipedia (for what it's worth) mentions WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins as a "killer dungeon" and that definitely piqued my interest.

I find it pretty far short of a "killer dungeon."  It's quite bland.  (And the maps are really meh, to me.)  To be fair, it suffers from the problem any very large published dungeon has to face: how much detail to include when covering such a large site.  Still, my advice would be to make your own Castle Greyhawk dungeon; it'll probably be superior.

QuoteAnd of course, I'd love to know what people think about the Greyhawk Wars "reimagining" of the setting.

It didn't appeal to me.  As I mentioned, above, I think the original tone/feel of Greyhawk is a pretty much perfect match for D&D.  It's not too wild and crazy, but it's not too grim/dark/gritty.  It's a natural fit for the assumptions made in the D&D rules, themselves.  The changes made in Greyhawk Wars and From the Ashes weren't made because the setting *needed* changing, and I think they tried to take Greyhawk in a different direction with a darker tone that doesn't suit it.

I'm not sure why TSR thought the setting should change.  Maybe they were trying to inject metaplot and setting change to stimulate sales.  But if the Greyhawk line suffered from poor sales in that era it wasn't because of Greyhawk, itself, it's because the products were poor.  I know I quit buying them.

Quote from: The Butcher;639843Is the 1987 late 1e/pre-2e Greyhawk Adventures book any good?

No.  My copy is a shelf queen.  It looks like new because I never use it.  There's nothing in there that you need.

I will second the 83 boxed set as awesome. It really is all you need to start a Greyhawk campaign.

I suppose I never answered the part of the original question about Greyhawk in general.  Of course, the original boxed set (1983) is my favorite.  Something folks tend to forget is that Gary did include six full adventure outlines in the Glossography booklet in the set.  Steve Winter may have helped with those as editor of the booklet.  I'm uncertain of the scope of his involvement in the set.  They are pretty full descriptive outlines.  

The Adventure Outlines

Quest of the Mist Golem
The Werewolves of the Menowood
The Lost Passage of the Suloise
The Jungle of Lost Ships
The Copper Raider
The Stolen Seal

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;639850Still, my advice would be to make your own Castle Greyhawk dungeon; it'll probably be superior.

That goes without saying

It's relatively rare for me to use setting material (at least for D&D) as written. More often than not, I take the chop-shop approach and butcher it for bits and pieces I can use on my own settings. My games may be homebrewed, but I don't necessarily grow all the ingredients in my garden.

Thanks for the pointers, though. That was a really comprehensive and helpful post.

WGR1 can be used as a model on some things. I think there is some good stuff in there. The maps are admittedly not pretty and rather bland in execution, but there's some value to them. I agree that the dungeon itself feels rather bland and that a personal custom build would probably be superior. At the same time, it can provide some fodder to your campaign and save some time if you're ready to tweak it and spice some things up.

All that said. It's not the actual Castle Greyhawk. Obviously.