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Author Topic: Green Ronin Talent Contest - Looking For Female Writers - Discussion  (Read 17679 times)

Natty Bodak

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« Reply #135 on: April 12, 2017, 06:20:06 PM »
Quote from: Tristram Evans;956861
Actually, just realized you probably don't, since you're Canadian. And as such, this isn't an issue that affects you in the slightest....so, I think Black Vulmea was right in this case.

So Brady's trying to pass off things he's read on the internet as first hand, authoritative declarations of fact?  That's never happened before, has it?!

I roll to disbelieve!
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 06:34:39 PM by Natty Bodak »
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Charon's Little Helper

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« Reply #136 on: April 12, 2017, 06:25:17 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;956932
And yet. Whenever I hear the wage gap mentioned by politicans or in the media, it's always portrayed as women getting paid less because all men are sexist assholes.

I mean, for there to be such a widespread, universal wage gap, it must mean that women rarely work in any kind of self-employment, that nearly all bosses are men, and that all of those men are making a conscious choice to pay women less, per hour or per salary.

The truth is that women in self-employment earn less as well. I'm sure someone could chalk it up to "internalized misogyny", but I think the narrative breaks down at that point. Big companies would get assreamed by their competitors if it could be brought to light that they discriminate pay based on sex. And so on.
I think the tiny sliver of the pay gap that can't be explained by women's choices can be explained by sexism. And that can be addressed on the individual level. Any affirmative action style programs aren't going to do diddly bupkus.

When you make an apples-to-apples comparison which takes into account job/experience/location/education level/hours etc., I believe that the pay gap is less than 4%.  (I'm not going to weigh in on if there are other relevant factors which should shift it either way.)  While noticeable, it seems tiny relative to the $0.78 on the dollar I'm always hearing.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 06:27:36 PM by Charon's Little Helper »

Christopher Brady

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« Reply #137 on: April 12, 2017, 07:19:10 PM »
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;956954
When you make an apples-to-apples comparison which takes into account job/experience/location/education level/hours etc., I believe that the pay gap is less than 4%.  (I'm not going to weigh in on if there are other relevant factors which should shift it either way.)  While noticeable, it seems tiny relative to the $0.78 on the dollar I'm always hearing.

Actually, it's 2% according to the last known statistics.

You know what I want?  Some definitive proof that somewhere, women are being held back from...  Well, anything, here in the West.  I can't seem to find one legal right they don't have, and yet, they claim to be oppressed.  'Oppressed' to the point where ads like this are considered effectively mandatory no matter the legalities involved.

There has to be something, a paper trail (electronic or otherwise) we can follow.
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Charon's Little Helper

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« Reply #138 on: April 12, 2017, 07:26:28 PM »
Quote from: Christopher Brady;956963
Actually, it's 2% according to the last known statistics.

I must have been looking at old stats.  (They might have been 2011 or 2012.)

JamesV

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« Reply #139 on: April 12, 2017, 07:37:56 PM »
Quote from: Christopher Brady;956832
OK, now I know you're deliberately trolling.  Forget it.  I've proven my point, what they are doing is a federal crime.


Stop being such a pussy and let GR make their damn game.
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jhkim

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« Reply #140 on: April 12, 2017, 07:41:00 PM »
Quote from: tenbones;956941
Right now approximately 47% of the sci-fi/fantasy and speculative-fiction books published and sent to various magazines/webzines are from women (and this was from figures 3 years ago) compared to the paltry 14% from 1950. Now where you *will* see a discrepancy is not from the publishers - but from reviewers. But this in no way is representative of the publishing industry. Mind you - this has *zero* to do with sales. *Zero* to do with tastes in the consuming public. Almost half of the fiction books in our gaming genre-wheelhouse are by women. But at what point does the oppression-narrative end? When do individual tastes account for anything? When does marketing overtake the political need for the narrative to even exist? The answer is: never. Because too many people begin to benefit from the "movement" that has outlasted its real need. But hey, let's not let that stop us.
I couldn't find the source of your numbers here from search. Do you have a link or remember a name that this comes from?

In particular, I think it's useful to see more than just participation numbers, because those aren't definitive. For example, nursing is 90% female, but that doesn't prove that it is full of man-hating reverse sexism. In fact, studies suggest that male nurses are paid more than their female counterparts. In science fiction there may be perfect unbiased equality, but it isn't proven solely by 47% participation.


Quote from: tenbones;956941
Of course racism/misogyny/general assholish behavior lame when it shows up. But I'm saying sometimes it's worth questioning the narrative and examine what is really going on.
Absolutely. It's worth questioning both the narrative of "it's all sexism" and it's worth questioning the narrative of "there is no sexism". Sadly, a lot of people take the attitude of "Well, it's controversial and people make different arguments, so I'll just believe what I want to believe."


Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;956954
When you make an apples-to-apples comparison which takes into account job/experience/location/education level/hours etc., I believe that the pay gap is less than 4%.  (I'm not going to weigh in on if there are other relevant factors which should shift it either way.)  While noticeable, it seems tiny relative to the $0.78 on the dollar I'm always hearing.
What is your source for less than 4%? The study I'm most familiar with is Blau and Kahn, who found that a fully adjusted measure of pay in the same jobs with the same background had a pay gap of 8.4%.

http://www.economics.cornell.edu/about/news/new-york-times-highlights-professors-blau-and-kahns-gender-wage-gap-research

However, that might not be the "correct" number depending on what you are trying to measure. Some of the remaining 10-12% gap could also be caused by sexism, if sexism influences what jobs women are hired for, how much experience they get, and so forth. There is also the effect among couples I mentioned earlier. If a wife is making 8.4% less than her husband, she is more likely to take time off, move away from her career, etc.

Christopher Brady

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« Reply #141 on: April 12, 2017, 07:45:10 PM »
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;956964
I must have been looking at old stats.  (They might have been 2011 or 2012.)

Let me see if I can find mine.  Mine actually might be incorrect ones.  Actually, I was using the wrong number, it's actually 8% according to this one paper:

http://ftp.iza.org/dp9656.pdf

And I'm apparently out of date, that paper ends it's work at 2010.  So your number maybe correct.
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Tristram Evans

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« Reply #142 on: April 12, 2017, 07:46:09 PM »
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;956954
When you make an apples-to-apples comparison which takes into account job/experience/location/education level/hours etc., I believe that the pay gap is less than 4%.  (I'm not going to weigh in on if there are other relevant factors which should shift it either way.)  While noticeable, it seems tiny relative to the $0.78 on the dollar I'm always hearing.

From the statistics I've seen, it varies wildy based on age range and industry. But from what I can tell, for millennials, women actually make more than men overall.

Charon's Little Helper

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« Reply #143 on: April 12, 2017, 07:49:22 PM »
Quote from: jhkim;956967
What is your source for less than 4%? The study I'm most familiar with is Blau and Kahn, who found that a fully adjusted measure of pay in the same jobs with the same background had a pay gap of 8.4%.

http://www.economics.cornell.edu/about/news/new-york-times-highlights-professors-blau-and-kahns-gender-wage-gap-research

However, that might not be the "correct" number depending on what you are trying to measure. Some of the remaining 10-12% gap could also be caused by sexism, if sexism influences what jobs women are hired for, how much experience they get, and so forth. There is also the effect among couples I mentioned earlier. If a wife is making 8.4% less than her husband, she is more likely to take time off, move away from her career, etc.

I actually just found the 2% stat mentioned after my post.  http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/gender-pay-gap - though I don't know if other places might still go a couple % higher depending upon their methodology.

Whatever the case - it sounds like there's still a bit of a wage gap (though I've heard an argument that some of the job categories slant it to be more than it is - such as pro athletes being combined with other jobs - where the male athletes obviously skew the stats towards males in that category *shrug*) but definitely nowhere near the $0.78 on the dollar or so commonly spouted. (which would have males earning more that 28% more)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 07:55:11 PM by Charon's Little Helper »

Omega

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« Reply #144 on: April 12, 2017, 07:59:57 PM »
I've never heard of anywhere in the US that pays women less than men for the exact same job?

Shipyard Locked

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« Reply #145 on: April 12, 2017, 08:00:14 PM »
EDIT: You know what, fuck this stupid topic. What could I possibly add that hasn't already been said?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 08:03:11 PM by Shipyard Locked »

cranebump

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« Reply #146 on: April 12, 2017, 08:47:01 PM »
Quote from: Lynn;956912
That said, you frame the context and define terms, and yet those same terms have implied meanings and relevance beyond that context. They are also suggestive of corrective measures based on social norms.

What amounts as an advantage depends on exactly how you define each individual instance and type of advantage, and perhaps more importantly, what you don't. Just like the earlier point someone made of equal pay vs lifetime earnings potential.

Once you drill down into specific sub-groups or individuals, things start to fly apart. But here's the thing. Even if I fall entirely within the scope of your definition, I still have my individual rights, and also personal 'properties' which grant protected status under the law (gender, national origin, etc). And even if you've narrowed the scope of your definition and I happen to fall within the range of 'privilege' it is no protection against pursuing my rights to life, liberty and happiness right into a horrible situation of my own devising, or protection against some random event or encounter or disability.

I don't recognize or accept labels that aren't clearly defined and qualified. "White Privilege" is a social narrative construct and intentionally left without clear, specific definitions of scope, because it is more useful that way to some who use the term to their advantage.

You make a fair point. And the label is dicey, at best. But in order to discuss it, I think you have to call it something. When I think of the issue, I mainly consider certain instances that affect others that have a much smaller chance of happening to me, like getting questioned by cops in my own driveway (as happened to Doug Glanville, a former major leaguer with the Phillies), or having a greater chance of being harassed. The closest thing I have to it is once when I was going on a walk around my neighborhood, dressed way down in some old sweats, I had a local cop pull up and ask me where I lived. I pointed to my house a block away and said, "Right there." Dude got all pissy and told me not to walk on the side of the road. My only recourse on that stretch of road -- a short, horribly maintained piece without a real shoulder, bounded by waist high grass, a piece I needed to cover before turning down a sidestreet that had a proper shoulder -- was to walk through the jungle for 100 feet. So, I asked the guy, "Am I supposed to walk in the weeds?" He just sneered and drove off. I don't know whether he considered pressing the issue more or not (which would've been interesting, because I was also less than a quarter mile from where I worked, so I could've pointed to the HS to identify that), but he drove off.

I still wonder sometimes what might have happened if I'd been someone else. Probably nothing. But I think that, if I had been someone else, maybe one of those minority kids I teach, whether the guy would've reacted differently. Maybe not. I can't say. But it made me think about it. More than I'd thought about it before. What I still take away from it is that I don't have to live with certain fears, as others might. Fears that don't even occur to me, but are a daily presence for others.

Again, can't say it fits all situations, but, even if we just have perception problems, then we need to attack the perceptions, try to get to a place where a company like GR doesn't feel like it has to open doors that already are (and I don't think they all are--yet).

I haven't done a great job of contributing directly to the central question of this thread, so I'll shut my trap on it, lest I get way off topic again. I think GR's idea is fine, and they're welcome to it. I hope some new and great talent is discovered that enhances the gaming culture in some way.

P.S. That horrible stretch of road, a real hazard that had busses running to it back and forth, every school day, was the main artery feeding the school with the low income students. I worked there 9 years. They JUST started working on it this year, and they're still not finished with it. Meanwhile, the high income school, with its nice, broad-laned road, also is getting an upgrade that it really doesn't need. Both schools use the same tax base. I don't know what took so long. I just know that, had the situation been reversed, the upscale crew would've pitched a shit fit, same as we did, and (tou bet your ass) it would've been taken care of a lot quicker.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 08:50:42 PM by cranebump »
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Spinachcat

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« Reply #147 on: April 12, 2017, 09:30:52 PM »
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;956973
EDIT: You know what, fuck this stupid topic. What could I possibly add that hasn't already been said?

A song and dance number?

Shipyard Locked

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« Reply #148 on: April 12, 2017, 09:54:01 PM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;956984
A song and dance number?



Tristram Evans

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« Reply #149 on: April 12, 2017, 10:10:10 PM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;956984
A song and dance number?