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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Lawbag on May 16, 2011, 03:03:31 AM

Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Lawbag on May 16, 2011, 03:03:31 AM
A companion thread to the Best Art/Worst Art topics, is this question really...what games have been successfuly only because of the artwork?
 
Id blame Tim Bradstreet personally for the success of Vampire:TM, because without him, Im sure the game would have died a death the day it got published...he made vampires too cool to not want to play them
 
Oh, and Id also blame Brom for making Dark Sun appear to be a far more interesting and dark place than it really was.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Cranewings on May 16, 2011, 03:07:54 AM
We always made fun of the vampire art.

If you knew the goth crowd I did, you wouldn't be surprised that game sold itself.

I guess my vote would be third edition dragon lance. They had awesome art but cut the balls out of a lot of it.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: jeff37923 on May 16, 2011, 03:29:07 AM
The Red Star d20 campaign. I love Chris Gosset and his artwork and think that the comic The Red Star is awesome, but the damn campaign setting took all of that awesome and shredded it in translation.

Space Opera and Jeff Dee artwork. I so love the Jeff Dee artwork that I have bought adventures and supplements for Space Opera even though I think the Space Opera game sucks rancid dingleberries out of an asshole.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Soylent Green on May 16, 2011, 03:47:32 AM
Red Star,  good spot there.

For me Warp World falls in this category. I've always liked the style of the artwork and for that reason alone it's survived all my periodic game culls. But the rules are a nightmare (not necessarily bad but very complicated) and the setting is terribly contrived. I think there is a new edition that at least does something interesting with the timeline.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: danbuter on May 16, 2011, 05:49:10 AM
Earthdawn 1e. Amazing art, great setting. Rules were clunky and not so hot.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Lawbag on May 16, 2011, 06:18:42 AM
I think its fair to say with Dan Smiff(Smith) doing the artwork for In Nomine, that good would have never flown, period.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: KrakaJak on May 16, 2011, 06:36:48 AM
Engel, goddamned Engel. I hear the original non-D20 version was much better. But the American Engel had amazing art and a damn near unplayable and incomplete system.
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/vitkyre/engel_beutereitersmall.jpg)
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Caesar Slaad on May 16, 2011, 06:39:19 AM
Um, RIFTS?
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Cranewings on May 16, 2011, 09:14:53 AM
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;458263
Um, RIFTS?


Shut up. (;
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Aos on May 16, 2011, 10:37:33 AM
Quote from: danbuter;458257
Earthdawn 1e. Amazing art, great setting. Rules were clunky and not so hot.


Ha. i loved the art and we dug the rules (after getting accustomed to them over the course of a years long campaign) but, although I really like some elements of the setting, overall it bored me my by being over full and too small.
Now though I can't stand the system either; the art is still nice though
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Aos on May 16, 2011, 10:40:25 AM
Quote from: Lawbag;458249

 
Oh, and Id also blame Brom for making Dark Sun appear to be a far more interesting and dark place than it really was.


Laying aside art work and game mechanics- the presentation of the 4e  fluff is far better and much darker. The original 2e box does not live up to its potential in this regard, and a lot of the interior art (Baxa's) is ass .
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Cole on May 16, 2011, 11:48:34 AM
Quote from: Aos;458287
Laying aside art work and game mechanics- the presentation of the 4e  fluff is far better and much darker. The original 2e box does not live up to its potential in this regard, and a lot of the interior art (Baxa's) is ass .


Could you elaborate on that? (Better and darker vs. not living up to potential) I haven't read the DS 4e books.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Aos on May 16, 2011, 01:00:51 PM
Quote from: Cole;458293
Could you elaborate on that? (Better and darker vs. not living up to potential) I haven't read the DS 4e books.

Well for one thing the atlas section of the cg is 3rd person as opposed to 1st. The presentation of the first set really acts as a bar to the cool grittiness of the setting. The 4e atlas is, in my opinion, just better, and it is objectively far more concise. As far as darker goes, I think the descriptions of the cities and wilderness  and the types of things that go down in them is just hits the note better for me.  Also Brom's absence aside, the interior art is superior in the 4e books. Beyond that, the writing is just better, I guess. I really dig the creature books from both iterations, though.

Also WoTC's two and out book policy insures that the setting will not be fucked up with kruft and hope down the road.
I'd run this game with S&W WB, some house rules, Carcoasa psionics and 4e fluff.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Loz on May 16, 2011, 01:09:21 PM
Skyrealms of Jorune.

Fabulous art, intriguing setting, but the system was an utter mess. The second printing of the game came with a 20 page errata that still didn't make the system work.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: danbuter on May 16, 2011, 01:42:24 PM
I'm surprised Engel hasn't been republished with it's original system. I know I'd buy it.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: beeber on May 16, 2011, 03:43:30 PM
don't forget the tBP darling, Eoris ;)
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: misterguignol on May 16, 2011, 03:49:19 PM
Quote from: beeber;458356
don't forget the tBP darling, Eoris ;)


There is an Eeyore role-playing game?
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: FASERIP on May 16, 2011, 03:59:15 PM
Quote from: Loz;458312
Skyrealms of Jorune.

Fabulous art, intriguing setting, but the system was an utter mess. The second printing of the game came with a 20 page errata that still didn't make the system work.


I really think this should be a contender for the top spot. Teves' artwork is some of the best to ever appear in an RPG.

The third edition has a GM screen and ~80-page errata booklet as one of its modules.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: jibbajibba on May 16, 2011, 05:19:35 PM
Quote from: FASERIP;458361

Quote

Originally Posted by Loz View Post
Skyrealms of Jorune.

Fabulous art, intriguing setting, but the system was an utter mess. The second printing of the game came with a 20 page errata that still didn't make the system work.

I really think this should be a contender for the top spot. Teves' artwork is some of the best to ever appear in an RPG.

The third edition has a GM screen and ~80-page errata booklet as one of its modules.


I would agree though I add the original Games workshop Judge Dredd Game as a contender.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Tetsubo on May 16, 2011, 05:23:26 PM
Quote from: Loz;458312
Skyrealms of Jorune.

Fabulous art, intriguing setting, but the system was an utter mess. The second printing of the game came with a 20 page errata that still didn't make the system work.


Some of the best artwork in a RPG product that I have ever seen. But I have no memory of the system itself. I read it once when it was released.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on May 16, 2011, 06:33:04 PM
Quote from: beeber;458356
don't forget the tBP darling, Eoris ;)


x10,000%

I'm not sure Eoris can actually be played without extensive houseruling. Certainly, no one seems able to understand the actual mechanics or large parts of the setting if the threads on rpg.net are anything to go by.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Justin Alexander on May 16, 2011, 06:37:29 PM
Quote from: Lawbag;458249
Id blame Tim Bradstreet personally for the success of Vampire:TM, because without him, Im sure the game would have died a death the day it got published...he made vampires too cool to not want to play them


Possibly. But vampires were hot, dice pools were hot, goths were hot, and "we're telling a story" pretension was hot. That game was pretty much perfectly positioned in all sorts of ways.

And it's still one of the best covers in the history of roleplaying games.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: GameDaddy on May 16, 2011, 09:43:33 PM
Quote from: misterguignol;458358
There is an Eeyore role-playing game?

In Eoris the art is incomparable and inspiring. The system is more complex than the art, however might be salvageable (based on my discussion with one of the authors, Daniel).

My daughter picked it out as a game she wanted to try (based on the art).

Alas... they won't accept credit cards for International orders (The publishing company is in Columbia), and the last two years at GenCon, they had sold out before I made it to the dealers hall.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Lawbag on May 17, 2011, 03:23:59 AM
Quote from: Loz;458312
Skyrealms of Jorune.

Fabulous art, intriguing setting, but the system was an utter mess. The second printing of the game came with a 20 page errata that still didn't make the system work.


The art was very evocative, especially the front cover. That one image made me want to buy it. Don't know why, then or now.

But agree the rules are tired and just not very clever.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Lawbag on May 17, 2011, 03:30:46 AM
Quote from: danbuter;458322
I'm surprised Engel hasn't been republished with it's original system. I know I'd buy it.


Some guy did print up a set of translated rules and arcana cards on the 'net.
A Google search should reveal it, if not I have the PDFs.
It attempted to provide a set of rules as close to the original German game as possible and not the shoddy and lazy D20 conversion we ended up with.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Ghost Whistler on May 17, 2011, 05:49:47 AM
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;458410
x10,000%

I'm not sure Eoris can actually be played without extensive houseruling. Certainly, no one seems able to understand the actual mechanics or large parts of the setting if the threads on rpg.net are anything to go by.


I'm not sure the character sheet can be viewed without going insane.

I dont' think it exists in fewer than 5 dimensions.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Grymbok on May 17, 2011, 06:41:12 AM
Quote from: Lawbag;458567
The art was very evocative, especially the front cover. That one image made me want to buy it. Don't know why, then or now.

But agree the rules are tired and just not very clever.


The rules are full of holes and barely function, and the setting is patchy and appallingly explained (it wasn't until someone else pointed it out to me that I had even the slightest idea that the main city in the setting is explicitly modelled on Classical Athens). But the artwork is perfect. Somehow with just 30 or so spot illustrations they created the illusion that this was one of the most realistic and detailed RPG settings ever.

There's probably less setting material for Jorune across all it's editions than there is in the current core book for any of the D&D settings - but people often seem to think it's one of the most detailed settings out there, up with Tekumel and Glorantha. I can only assume that the artwork is why
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Opaopajr on May 17, 2011, 12:31:52 PM
OMG, the artwork for Eoris is amazing! It's like they borrowed graphic artists from Avatar on their downtime or something. How on earth did they get such a budget to spend on the art? Or is that where the majority of the budget was spent on in the first place? Perhaps their price reflex an attempt to recoup investment -- $95 is quite a bit for an rpg box set, for me.

I'm wondering how heavy the setting is tied into the conceits built into the system. I usually could care less about a game system because I mainly buy games for their settings. Only two things stop me from porting over things: one, too much background material to convert, or two, the "setting is the system is the setting." But that world map alone is gamercrack to me.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Nicephorus on May 17, 2011, 12:59:32 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;458684
OMG, the artwork for Eoris is amazing! It's like they borrowed graphic artists from Avatar on their downtime or something. How on earth did they get such a budget to spend on the art? Or is that where the majority of the budget was spent on in the first place? Perhaps their price reflex an attempt to recoup investment -- $95 is quite a bit for an rpg box set, for me.

I'm guessing the creators are the artists.  I've seen things like this before among movies* and games.  The artist are in the lead and none of them has enough other skills so there is no strong hand that shapes the plot or crunch so all you have is evocative art that doesn't hold together in the end.  
 
 
*I think Sky Captain and The World of Tomorrow is like this.  There's also a French animation with a giant tree whose name escapes me.  The games were all doa so I can't remember any names.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Lawbag on May 17, 2011, 02:42:36 PM
Lol@Grymbot,

If you strive for realism you end up with RoleMaster or F.A.T.A.L.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: J Arcane on May 17, 2011, 03:16:07 PM
Quote
OMG, the artwork for Eoris is amazing!
I really don't see how anyone can refer to THIS  (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=458730&postcount=150)as "amazing".

Tell the truth: You have a collection of blue wolf-in-star-field shirts, don't you?
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: J Arcane on May 17, 2011, 03:19:29 PM
As for my own pick, I'd have to go with Anima.

It doesn't really do anything for me now, but back when it was announced I was in the midst of a shameful anime phase, and it WAS a pretty slick website.  

But apparently the system is absolute needlessly overcomplicated bollocks, and as a result the game pretty much died once it actually came out and couldn't ride on visual hype any longer.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Benoist on May 17, 2011, 03:59:43 PM
Quote from: Lawbag;458725
Lol@Grymbot,

If you strive for realism you end up with RoleMaster or F.A.T.A.L.
Are you kidding me? Rolemaster isn't anywhere near the same ballpark as FATAL (talking about rules complexity, nevermind the zillion of other offensive things one could repeat about FATAL). It's in the same ballpark as 3rd ed D&D maybe, but it's not as insanely complicated as people think it is, unless of course you're having seizures just having to look at charts.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Aos on May 17, 2011, 04:05:26 PM
pffft Rolemaste is just a Dildo critical chart away from being FATAL.
Rolemaster: Cock's Law, coming soon.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: islan on May 17, 2011, 04:11:57 PM
Quote from: Aos;458750
pffft Rolemaste is just a Dildo critical chart away from being FATAL.
Rolemaster: Cock's Law, coming soon.


bahahahahahah, hehe heh heh ... okay that one got me.

Incidentally, I find that my Rolemaster Standard System books have some of the best art I've ever seen for a roleplaying game.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Benoist on May 17, 2011, 04:20:04 PM
Quote from: Aos;458750
pffft Rolemaste is just a Dildo critical chart away from being FATAL.

You've played too much FATAL. You should go lie down.

Quote from: Aos;458750
Rolemaster: Cock's Law, coming soon.
... OK. Maybe not. :eek:
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: stu2000 on May 17, 2011, 08:55:15 PM
The outre digital art in Zero was effective when it came out. I think the gene's been pretty beat up since then, but at the time it seemed fresh.

It's one of the few games I've ever seen that I'm pretty sure was constructed expressly around the art. It took a pretty good shot at a world that showed the world to an advantage, but the rules were forgettable. They had a multiplication gimmick, but didn't do much to frame a world with that evocative art. Could've been better, I guess.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Caesar Slaad on May 17, 2011, 09:33:15 PM
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;458410
x10,000%

I'm not sure Eoris can actually be played without extensive houseruling.


Sounds like my impression of Anima: Beyond Fantasy.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Opaopajr on May 18, 2011, 07:27:15 AM
Quote from: J Arcane;458733
I really don't see how anyone can refer to THIS  (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=458730&postcount=150)as "amazing".

Tell the truth: You have a collection of blue wolf-in-star-field shirts, don't you?


It'll totally blend in with my Asia posters! :p
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: GameDaddy on May 18, 2011, 08:57:16 AM
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;458814
Sounds like my impression of Anima: Beyond Fantasy.

Actually, for Eoris, I had in mind more of a shamanistic style game, in say that Native American tradition of the ancestors returning as spirit guides, and of course, spirits from the otherworld taking on the forms of animals.

Initially the whole Deity suicide scenario put me off as well, and my first review of this game before it was even published was quite negative.

Two thing made me change my mind. My daughter wanted to try that game, and rule zero. Being God, if you want to commit suicide, it's already done. So there's no story for that. If on the other hand, there's a third party with a vested interest in making you believe that God wants to end the universe, then you have a mystery to unravel.

It's hard to talk about a game though without actually having a copy in hand.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: Akrasia on May 18, 2011, 12:17:46 PM
Quote from: Lawbag;458725
Lol@Grymbot,

If you strive for realism you end up with RoleMaster or F.A.T.A.L.


:confused:

Quote from: Benoist;458749
Are you kidding me? Rolemaster isn't anywhere near the same ballpark as FATAL (talking about rules complexity, nevermind the zillion of other offensive things one could repeat about FATAL). It's in the same ballpark as 3rd ed D&D maybe, but it's not as insanely complicated as people think it is, unless of course you're having seizures just having to look at charts.


Spot on.

Given that Lawbag is prepping MERP, I'm quite puzzled by his comment.
Title: Great Art Betrayed a Crappy Game
Post by: RPGPundit on May 18, 2011, 07:52:11 PM
I don't think any game has become popular due to good art alone.   This thread alone has many examples of games with clearly great art that did not succeed, due to their crappy qualities in other areas (mostly system).

I think its possible that great art can be a significant influencing factor in the popularity of a game, but its never enough to carry a game by itself. Just like really bad art can be a significant influencing factor in harming a game's popularity, but poor art in and of itself will never be solely responsible for a game's failure.

RPGPundit