This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures  (Read 12948 times)

Greentongue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1609
Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2021, 08:06:12 PM »
As everyone agrees that slavery is Bad, and they exist as a source of cheap labor, if you attempt to overthrow the institution of slavery buy replacing their cheap labor with undead/zombies, are you "Good" or "Evil"?
What kind of effect does this have on a game world?
Does anyone care what happens to the people that were slaves, as long as they are no longer enslaved?

BoxCrayonTales

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • B
  • Posts: 3313
Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2021, 08:25:04 PM »
As everyone agrees that slavery is Bad, and they exist as a source of cheap labor, if you attempt to overthrow the institution of slavery buy replacing their cheap labor with undead/zombies, are you "Good" or "Evil"?
What kind of effect does this have on a game world?
Does anyone care what happens to the people that were slaves, as long as they are no longer enslaved?
Ask your GM. The answer is always “ask the GM.”

In real life… sorry, in Haitian folklore zombies are souls enslaved even after death. You keep the soul trapped in a “zombie bottle” to remotely animate the corpse. It’s still slavery and therefore bad because it prevents the sweet release of death.

Unless the family of the deceased paid you to zombify them as punishment for crimes. Which is a thing.



amacris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • a
  • Posts: 585
Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2021, 10:45:45 PM »

I had to wrestle with this for my own setting. I made it work by using morality from the more recent past; close enough to be relatable, far enough back to be interesting and plausible.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 11:34:41 PM by amacris »

SHARK

  • The Great Shark Hope
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5039
Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2021, 12:10:55 AM »
Greetings!

Hmmm. In my campaigns, everything that terrifies SJW's and provokes them to sobbing hysterics is present. Lots of "Privilege", classism, misogyny, racism, hatred. Whole castes of people are viewed by the elites as unwashed masses of filthy, depraved animals. Brutality, war, conquest, plundering--all such elements are an ordinary part of life. Slaves are ubiquitous. Cities are full of brothels thronged with depraved whores. Entire races have been exterminated in past ages, and there are frequent episodes of ethnic cleansing and brutal pogroms against whatever race, depending on the region, province, or kingdom--in some areas, Orcs and Half Orcs are targeted; other regions launch ethnic cleansing campaigns against various kinds of Humans, Elves, or Halflings. Religions are also frequently causes for social strife, riots, and persecutions. Districts within a city of worshippers of the Vanilla Tiger goddess or whatever can be persecuted--beaten, robbed, imprisoned, or killed. Various religions are often full of hatred towards rival religions and factions, and are always eager to embrace some pretext to launch a public campaign against the foreign religions. Many people and communities are clannish, and insular. Witch Hunters search for witches to burn at the stake, and dark, evil cultists are nearly everywhere. The wilderness outside the gates are full of savage, evil monsters. Underground sewers beneath towns and cities are often subterranean lairs for hungry ratmen, frog-men, cultists of various kinds, as well as monsters. Danger, violence, sadism, cruelty, and bloodlust are everywhere.

My players are made aware that the campaign world is much more based on ideas of the Ancient World and the Dark Ages, and has a strong dose of added Chaos, Metal, Blood and Thunder. 2021 Seattle it definitely isn't. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

Chris24601

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • C
  • Posts: 3326
Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2021, 11:10:35 AM »
In my campaigns, everything that terrifies SJW's and provokes them to sobbing hysterics is present.
My setting is similar in that it would definitely provoke the Woke, but I have a bit more of a mix in mine. The there are absolutely places like you describe, but I also what might be best called “hope spots” (or as I refer to them “heroic realms”) where more virtuous behavior is the norm.

They’re never perfect; the Free Cities are trying to be an egalitarian Republic, but a lot of that is wrapped up in the persona of a single charismatic war hero who a decade earlier ended the reign of the tyrant who had ruled previously and the government he’s tried to create may not survive its first real attempt at a peaceful transfer of power; but they’re trying to be better.

The intent is to give heroic PCs someplace worth fighting for. If everything is a Game of Thrones crapsack world where the only difference between people is the ways they’re awful to each other. Fantasy Worlds need their Shires every bit as much as they need their Mordors.

Greentongue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1609
Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2021, 02:31:45 PM »
The intent is to give heroic PCs someplace worth fighting for. If everything is a Game of Thrones crapsack world where the only difference between people is the ways they’re awful to each other. Fantasy Worlds need their Shires every bit as much as they need their Mordors.
If you want "Heroic" fantasy, yeah, you need somewhere heroes will fight for.

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11746
Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2021, 02:54:42 PM »
Danger, violence, sadism, cruelty, and bloodlust are everywhere.

My players are made aware that the campaign world is much more based on ideas of the Ancient World and the Dark Ages, and has a strong dose of added Chaos, Metal, Blood and Thunder.

So do you have alignment in your game, SHARK? And if so, what is "good" defined as?


The intent is to give heroic PCs someplace worth fighting for. If everything is a Game of Thrones crapsack world where the only difference between people is the ways they’re awful to each other. Fantasy Worlds need their Shires every bit as much as they need their Mordors.
If you want "Heroic" fantasy, yeah, you need somewhere heroes will fight for.

I love Lord of the Rings, and I've never read or watched Game of Thrones - but I don't think Shires or the equivalent are needed for fantasy worlds. I've had a lot of fun playing in historical or pseudo-historical settings where things are much more brutal than in Tolkien - like Harn and viking era campaigns. Still, I agree it's appealing to have heroes that feel really heroic to the players, as opposed to violent bastards slightly less horrible than their opponents.

Steven Mitchell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 3770
Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2021, 03:33:53 PM »
Well, the range of dark to heroic is where we cross over from alignment into theme, right?  If the theme of the game is all dark pseudo-Grecian fantasy, you don't want a place for the player with the my little pony centaur to feel at home.  Conversely, if the theme is lighter, there has to be something in the game setting to relieve the dark tension. It has to be the correct "something" that works in that setting, too.

I did a very heroic "survivalist" game once.  It was lots of room for all the typical heroic fantasy tropes--except you could still easily starve to death because of the survivalist angle.  People would kill for food, and it was heroic to bring food to others.  Unbelievably, when I state it like that, we made it work somehow.  We stopped the campaign not because it wasn't working but because the players discovered, well into it, that they actually didn't want to play in a heroic survivalist game after all, and that worrying about starving to death was not what they wanted to roleplay, especially when it came down to them or some helpless people.  :D

caldrail

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 59
Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2021, 10:06:18 PM »
Quote
As for torture, rape, etc... Well, I asume that in a brutal world those things do happen, do they need to be explicity described? WHY? Honestly why the fuck do they NEED to be explicity described?
They don't, but of course it is a matter of the group mentality.

There was a time in a campaign I used to run where the players infiltrated Drow society - I don't remember why - and the female elf had to pose as a Drow to avoid race hatred. Now I like to have some cultural framework for the evil monsters too, and it wasn't long before one particular Drow noble realised what the player actually was. It seemed a bit unfair to simply drag her away for execution, and to be fair, the other players were only going to get themselves into the same situation if they attempted a rescue. But of course, Drow as I played them were decadent, so when the Drow noble decided to enjoy her new slave in private, I made the player aware she was was in a predicament, I closed my notes and told her "I leave it to your imagination as what followed that night". That worked. She was visibly shocked without having to wade through the awful details.

SHARK

  • The Great Shark Hope
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5039
Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #69 on: September 24, 2021, 01:26:27 AM »
In my campaigns, everything that terrifies SJW's and provokes them to sobbing hysterics is present.
My setting is similar in that it would definitely provoke the Woke, but I have a bit more of a mix in mine. The there are absolutely places like you describe, but I also what might be best called “hope spots” (or as I refer to them “heroic realms”) where more virtuous behavior is the norm.

They’re never perfect; the Free Cities are trying to be an egalitarian Republic, but a lot of that is wrapped up in the persona of a single charismatic war hero who a decade earlier ended the reign of the tyrant who had ruled previously and the government he’s tried to create may not survive its first real attempt at a peaceful transfer of power; but they’re trying to be better.

The intent is to give heroic PCs someplace worth fighting for. If everything is a Game of Thrones crapsack world where the only difference between people is the ways they’re awful to each other. Fantasy Worlds need their Shires every bit as much as they need their Mordors.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Yes, Chris, I agree. I also have occasional "islands of hope" in my campaign, scattered about like little candle-lights flickering in the dark night. As dark and savage as much of my world is--I also have a few realms that, while themselves not perfect, strive mightily in their own ways to maintain and strengthen their own particular kingdoms to stand as firm bulwarks of reason, and to  good extent, peace, stability, and righteousness. Off the top of my head there are three or four Elven Kingdoms, and two or three Dwarven Kingdoms, for example, that maintain some kind of stable, reasonable, and virtuous societies, at least within the borders of their respective realms. Then I have a few enormous human empires, that while definitely not "peaceful"--does expend great effort, resources, and treasure in maintaining a reasonable society that embraces lawfulness, is guided by faith, aspires to righteousness, and zealously defends the empire and its security through fielding great armies of fierce legions. There are a few smaller human kingdoms scattered about the land that make some effort at resisting darkness and barbarism. Beyond such details, everything else around and between such places--hundreds or thousands of miles--is dominated by ruthless brigands, warlike bands of marauders, bloodthirsty tribes, and terrifying monsters.

A few places remain of mythical, idyllic beauty and virtue, which also serve as bastions of righteousness, peace, and inspiration for anyone that is fortunate to visit such celebrated locations.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

SHARK

  • The Great Shark Hope
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5039
Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #70 on: September 24, 2021, 01:48:16 AM »
Danger, violence, sadism, cruelty, and bloodlust are everywhere.

My players are made aware that the campaign world is much more based on ideas of the Ancient World and the Dark Ages, and has a strong dose of added Chaos, Metal, Blood and Thunder.

So do you have alignment in your game, SHARK? And if so, what is "good" defined as?


The intent is to give heroic PCs someplace worth fighting for. If everything is a Game of Thrones crapsack world where the only difference between people is the ways they’re awful to each other. Fantasy Worlds need their Shires every bit as much as they need their Mordors.
If you want "Heroic" fantasy, yeah, you need somewhere heroes will fight for.

I love Lord of the Rings, and I've never read or watched Game of Thrones - but I don't think Shires or the equivalent are needed for fantasy worlds. I've had a lot of fun playing in historical or pseudo-historical settings where things are much more brutal than in Tolkien - like Harn and viking era campaigns. Still, I agree it's appealing to have heroes that feel really heroic to the players, as opposed to violent bastards slightly less horrible than their opponents.

Greetings!

Hi, Jhkim! Yes, I use the traditional AD&D alignments. I tend to interpret them in a couple of different ways though. Yes, they have some degree of cosmic reality, and remain spiritual ideals so to speak, especially on a "Vertical" basis, concerning the spiritual realm, spiritual beings, creatures, minions, and spiritual influences. On a "Horizontal" basis--in the mortal world--various creatures and races operate imperfectly, and with variation. Such "alignments", in a mortal sense, are unconscious/quasi-conscious spiritual ideals that inform, inspire, and serve as a philosophy to guide individuals or to be striven towards exemplifying. Supernatural creatures typically operate in absolute perfection within their alignment.

Mortals, however, of whatever flavour, do not.

Most of humanity generally tends towards being Neutral in alignment, with fairly strong tendencies for many to embrace Lawful Neutral, with a significant subset being Chaotic Neutral. A large minority are some flavour of Evil alignment. Across the teeming masses throughout my world, a relative minority actually embrace some flavour of Good alignment. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

Ratman_tf

  • Alt-Reich Shitlord
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8330
Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #71 on: September 24, 2021, 03:30:48 AM »
Quote
As for torture, rape, etc... Well, I asume that in a brutal world those things do happen, do they need to be explicity described? WHY? Honestly why the fuck do they NEED to be explicity described?
They don't, but of course it is a matter of the group mentality.

There was a time in a campaign I used to run where the players infiltrated Drow society - I don't remember why - and the female elf had to pose as a Drow to avoid race hatred. Now I like to have some cultural framework for the evil monsters too, and it wasn't long before one particular Drow noble realised what the player actually was. It seemed a bit unfair to simply drag her away for execution, and to be fair, the other players were only going to get themselves into the same situation if they attempted a rescue. But of course, Drow as I played them were decadent, so when the Drow noble decided to enjoy her new slave in private, I made the player aware she was was in a predicament, I closed my notes and told her "I leave it to your imagination as what followed that night". That worked. She was visibly shocked without having to wade through the awful details.

Nice. I like to run a PG-13 game, and "fade to black" and let the player's imaginations fill in the details is a good approach to the more unsavory events.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

tenbones

  • Poobah of the D.O.N.G.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6164
Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #72 on: September 24, 2021, 12:47:58 PM »
As everyone agrees that slavery is Bad, and they exist as a source of cheap labor, if you attempt to overthrow the institution of slavery buy replacing their cheap labor with undead/zombies, are you "Good" or "Evil"?
What kind of effect does this have on a game world?
Does anyone care what happens to the people that were slaves, as long as they are no longer enslaved?

Slavery in the real world is not slavery in a game of make-believe.

Slavery as modernity views it is completely different than slavery was viewed in various stages of history. Civilization as we understand it today would *not* exist without the concept of slavery in the past.

I'm not sure why this is such an obsessive topic other than race-hustlers in America base their entire existence upon beating that dead-horse for personal gain, in lieu of other practices that litters history of many cultures -one could even argue modern ones - like child sacrifice, or arranged marriages or whatever.

The whole point of having problematic topics in RPG's and the cultures within them is to explore them from a gaming perspective. It's not an endorsement of anything.

Without slavery you'll have cultures that can't create efficiencies of labor that allow for other cultural pursuits - which also will affect the scale of the culture. Even then, you still have many primitive cultures that practiced the most brutal kinds of slavery: see the Plains Indians of America.

And yeah the Comanches never launched a rocket to the moon. They did apparently make helicopters...

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11746
Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #73 on: September 24, 2021, 01:02:49 PM »
There was a time in a campaign I used to run where the players infiltrated Drow society - I don't remember why - and the female elf had to pose as a Drow to avoid race hatred. Now I like to have some cultural framework for the evil monsters too, and it wasn't long before one particular Drow noble realised what the player actually was. It seemed a bit unfair to simply drag her away for execution, and to be fair, the other players were only going to get themselves into the same situation if they attempted a rescue. But of course, Drow as I played them were decadent, so when the Drow noble decided to enjoy her new slave in private, I made the player aware she was was in a predicament, I closed my notes and told her "I leave it to your imagination as what followed that night". That worked. She was visibly shocked without having to wade through the awful details.

Even with "fade to black", I avoid having captured PCs be raped. In my experience, basically all players prefer it that way.

tenbones

  • Poobah of the D.O.N.G.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6164
Re: Good, evil, and fantasy cultures
« Reply #74 on: September 24, 2021, 01:45:35 PM »
the level of content in ones game should always be measured for the audience.

My regular campaigns are for adults only. They hover normally at low-grade R, or a hard PG-13... but are wide open to go hard R. - Evil is as evil does. Dependent on the respective cultures (should they exist) of the creatures in question (human or otherwise).