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Author Topic: good enchanters  (Read 544 times)

tleilaxu

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good enchanters
« on: July 19, 2006, 06:51:29 PM »
enchantment always seemed liked the most evil of the magical schools, even more so than necromancy.

after all, what's the difference between nuking someone with fire or nuking them with negative energy? you're still killing someone. in my daydreaming mind, i even think about how negative energy could be used to cure cancer in fantasy worlds and other stuff like that.

but enchantment is all about controlling other living things. basically, you are taking away other sentient beings' free will and forcing them to be your slaves. that is pretty evil. plus, there are a bunch of spells which cause pain and stuff like that. in addition, the Hold spells mean you spend a lot of your time on the battlefield slicing the throats of helpless foes. not exactly what they told you about in LG Hero school.

so, how can an enchanter be played with a good alignment?

I have an idea for coming up with spells which are essentially mechanically identical to pain spells, but because of the distateful nature of such spells, instead produce euphoria.

 Distracting Euphoria (Crushing Despair)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd3, Sor/Wiz4
Components: VSM
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 30ft
Area: Cone-shaped burst
Duration: 1min/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
SR: Yes

An invisible cone of euphoria causes great pleasure in the subjects. Each affected creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls.
----

Stuff like that. What other stuff have you come up with for good enchanters?
at the moment of sacrifice let no blood be spilled!

Svartalf

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« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2006, 08:53:21 AM »
Honestly, I don't see your problem. I admit not to knowing Enchantment any too well (when I play a specialist, it's usually the first school to go), but I've tackled A LOT the problem of playing a necromancer with good, or at least definitely non evil, alignment. And when it comes to necromancy, it's not just nuking with a different energy, it's playing with the very stuff of undeath... a lot of the offensive spells are not plain nukes, they are curses: inflicting blindness, diseases, paralysis, curses, negative levels... and of coursze, there are the undead raising ones... so, yeah, playing with all of that without going over to the dark side is a real challenge. (and usually, I have to renounce to the undead creation spells pure and simple... disrespect to the dead, any dead, is an easy step to take, but it's a real slippery slope)

As for Enchantment, true, a lot of the high profile spells are about influencing and manipulating others... the secret to using those while being good is summed in three word : intent, restraint, respect.
-Intent : using that artificial influence for good intents and purposes, using it to make the unrighteous act for good.
-Respect : respect those you influence, don't force them to do stuff too far out of character, don't put them in hot water unless absolutely necessary, do see that they can return to a more or less normal existence when they stop being your puppet... if at all possible, act toward them in such a manner that, once free of your influence, they see you as a friend, not as that crud $£§%& who messed with their mind.
-Restraint : don't make them do stuff just because you can, keep a light touch, don't mess them up for pleasure.
 

tleilaxu

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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2006, 06:59:00 AM »
as far as enchantment vs. necromancy...

enchantment takes away the free will of creatures. you are enslaving other creatures to your will. surely you can see this is at best morally questionable.

as far as necromancy, well, why is undeath necessarily bad? in the published lit, there are all kinds of forms of undeath seen as not evil, such as elvish baelnorns and dwarven ancestral spirits. (BoED even has another name for good undead). osiris is a LG undead god. so i guess what i'm saying is that in most games and most cases undeath is bad, but not necessarily so. it is a hidden assumption that it is evil.

in addition, if you want to be a wizard specializing in nuking undead, you -must- have a decent selection of necromancy spells, such as disrupt undead, command undead, halt undead, undeath to death, control undead, etc.

plus there are a bunch of other 'good' necromancy spells like gentle repose, soul bind and astral projection.

just some thoughts...
at the moment of sacrifice let no blood be spilled!

Svartalf

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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2006, 09:31:46 AM »
Sure it can be morally questionable, that's what I dealt with in the second part of my post: keep sure you remain on moral high ground, even though your means are dubious.

I mentioned necromancy only as a parallel, as a school of magic whose powers and methods can also get you over to the dark sound in a jiffy if you're not careful... granted, I suspect DMs might be quicker to award dark side point if you dabble in necromancy than if you use enchantment to mess with other people, but the principle remains the same

a) use those powers only out of good intent

b) be careful about unforeseen consequences, we all know what place is paved with good intentions

c) the end does not justify the means past a certain point, so keep a light touch and make sure the acts themselves don't cross the threshold.

As for necromancy being inherently evil... not quite, or my favorite necromancer character concept would not work at all, and up to now, it seems to. The thing is that it's quite as borderline as enchantment, because it draws on negative energy, and is often more suitable for making others suffer than for cleanblasting. Similarly, creating undead usually creates evil creatures, or just takes over the bodies of the dead to create slaves, which in and of itself is questionable. I must admit I don't have the BoED, nor do I know where the Baelnom and Dwarven ancestral spirit are from... and do you mean "Deathless"? (that's how the elves of Aerenal, in Eberron call undead thriving on positive energy that are a main pillar of their society). Trouble is that, whatever these beings are, when it comes to undead, good is an exception, not the rule. As for the "good spells"... yes, there ARE a number of necro spells that are not evil in nature... just count how many "gentle repose" for a ghoul touch or a kiss of the vampire, plus some, like soul bind, are definitely neutral, not good, as they are quite open to abuse (just wait till the baddies use it on people that are on your side).
 

Nicephorus

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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2006, 10:52:05 AM »
Good enchantment: Obiwan Kenobi.

Seriously, he influenced only on occasion and only for the greater good.  But it would be easy to slide into selfish manipulation.  Even charm person would be easy to abuse, convince someone to have sex, convince them to a highly unfavorable trade, and generally being a con artist.

In a magical world, enchantment should have penalties as high or higher than physical assault, especially since it's harder to detect or prove.

Nicephorus

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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2006, 10:57:35 AM »
Quote from: Svartalf
As for necromancy being inherently evil... not quite,

It depends on the setup of the world's morality.  Messing with death of any sort could be seen as interfering with gods' plan.  Also, necromancy per se may not be evil, but any that use negative energy could be thought of as evil.  You're using the essence of evil, it will taint whatever you do.  It would be akin to making a pact with the devil for good intentions.

This isn't the only way to see necromancy but it's the sort of thing that someone should talk with their gm about if they want to be a non-evil necromancer.

tleilaxu

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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2006, 12:35:52 PM »
just on positive and negative energy. i don't like how people associate one as good and the other evil. i don't have a problem with other interpretations of course (it's just a game) but here is my take:

both positive and negative energy are necessary for life to exist. i wrote a short adventure where a druid was drawing on a slice to the positive energy plane, which was making all kinds of problems. it can grow bacteria to massive power, it can make cancerous cells gain terrible life. after all, life isn't necessarily good for humans, that's why we use anti-bacterial soap and kill flies when they get in the house.
neither negative nor positive energy is necessarily good or bad (you can even blow people up with too much positive energy as per the rules). they are only bad when they are in disharmony. this is the yin-yang of the dnd universe. or something. :bow:
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Janos

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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2006, 09:09:32 PM »
There are a lot of enchantment spells that produce friendly positive effects too.  I'm playing a Bard Beguiler right now with a ton of helpful buffs from Enchantment, a few outright control spells, and a lot of subtle "push" type manipulations without actually control others.
 

Blackthorne

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« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2009, 05:21:10 PM »
A Good Enchanter would be more about "Influence" and Friendship/Seduction, an evil Enchanter would be more about Control, Command, and Domination.

Ace wanted to play a non-standard Witch (2nd Ed Wizard's Handbook Kit) and came up with the idea of a Faerie Princess, which would still get the 3 starting magic items (which is what he was really after, being a munchkin power gamer) but be different in nature. Faeshondra was his Elven Enchanter, and used powers of seduction and charm. Later she branched into cleric of Hanali Celanil (Elven goddess of love and beauty) and became quite powerful with 2 types of magic to draw upon.

The weakness of Enchantment is that all the spells allow a saving throw (rolled behind the DM's screen) and won't work at all against certain types- Undead, Constructs, Dragons (magic resistance) Psionic types with mental defenses. And of course other enchanters. Throw enough of the right type of villain at the Enchanter where their powers are useless, and they suddenly get the point that specializing in one school like that can be very limiting.

It's also why I favor games with Alignment Systems, because in every game I've tried to run without one, Players immediately turn Chaotic Neutral, except for the few who skip the speedbump and go right for Chaotic Evil. "I do it because I can." I don't mind players who want to play EVIL characters. But I'm not going to have anyone at the table who can't tell the difference or tries to fool others about where their motives are.

Also, a lot of enchantment spells won't force someone to do something against their basic nature, which is a nice secondary save, if they fail their first one.