Quote from: jhkim on October 10, 2021, 01:14:23 AM
As I noted above, this isn't what it says. It's not reversing the morality of demons. It's allowing for exceptions of a demon seeking redemption or quitting the game -- or a disillusioned angel or fallen angel.

Also, you argue that RPG text has greater moral impact, but I think it's the opposite. An RPG lets players have impact on each other, but the game books are passive things. RPGs are do-it-yourself to a large degree. So if there's a rule that a group doesn't like, they'll ignore it. The same goes for material in modules. Based on this, I think that RPGs have less effect than books or movies.

Whether they are all good or only some of them are good isn't the point.  Demons aren't good.  They have virtually always been evil incarnate.  That's the point, and making good demons serves no purpose other than to virtue signal how hip they are to current social justice philosophy.  It removes the heroic good vs evil mythic quality of the game and replaces it with moral relativism instead.  And I put forth that anybody old enough to have spent a good portion of their lives prior to around 2010 or so only needs to look around to see that the effects of promoting hyperindividual personal expression along with a social philosophy of grouping people according to innate characteristics and assigning moral values to those groups has had a deleterious effect on mental health.  Just look at graphs of suicide rates, race relations, political polarization, etc.  Adding these same philosophies to our roleplaying games isn't going to do anything good for the players of those games.  It's only going to serve to further atomize society.  The game already has tieflings and warlocks and doesn't need to keep pushing in that direction.  And again I want to emphasize that I'm not chicken little saying the sky is falling, I'm just saying this is another factor in society that's going in what I think is the wrong direction.

And no, I did not argue that RPG text has greater moral impact.  I argued that playing an RPG immerses a player in the fiction more than reading a book or watching a movie.  Completely different argument.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 04:16:50 PM
Oddly, I kind of liked having devils and demons having their own names (baatezu and tanar'ri), though you're not wrong about the panic and the motivation behind changing them.

I much prefer having Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths and Gehreleths than Devils, Demons, Daemons and Demodands.

I think the 2E characterization of the Fiends was much more interesting and soulful than the 1E versions. Type VI Demon sounds incredibly lame to me, while Balor directly invokes a feeling of dread.

Quote from: BronzeDragon on October 12, 2021, 05:02:01 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 04:16:50 PM
Oddly, I kind of liked having devils and demons having their own names (baatezu and tanar'ri), though you're not wrong about the panic and the motivation behind changing them.

I much prefer having Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths and Gehreleths than Devils, Demons, Daemons and Demodands.

I think the 2E characterization of the Fiends was much more interesting and soulful than the 1E versions. Type VI Demon sounds incredibly lame to me, while Balor directly invokes a feeling of dread.

Agreed on the naming of Baatezu, etc.
Personally, I think that 2e was a high point in D&D. 

Quote from: BronzeDragon on October 12, 2021, 05:02:01 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 04:16:50 PM
Oddly, I kind of liked having devils and demons having their own names (baatezu and tanar'ri), though you're not wrong about the panic and the motivation behind changing them.

I much prefer having Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths and Gehreleths than Devils, Demons, Daemons and Demodands.

I think the 2E characterization of the Fiends was much more interesting and soulful than the 1E versions. Type VI Demon sounds incredibly lame to me, while Balor directly invokes a feeling of dread.

I make it easy in my world; there's just demons.

Different demons have different approaches to evil, but all of them are dedicated to bringing misery and ruin and to dragging as many souls as possible into Hell out of sheer spite (they lost, know they lost, and are now just trying to do as much damage as possible on the way out because every soul they corrupt denies it it's place in Paradise).

They can't be redeemed because they made their choice with full knowledge of the eternal consequences... better to reign in hell and we prove our power over God by stealing as many of the souls that belong to Him as we can. The demons freely chose and got exactly what they wanted.

The only ones fickle in my setting are the Eldritch; primal spirits too cowardly to pick a side and so have been exiled into the world in physical bodies (as giants, dragons, sylphs, undine, dryads, unicorns, etc.) until they can prove themselves worthy of returning to Heaven (ones seeking the goal are often PCs, those seeking their own path are often opponents for PCs to face).

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 12, 2021, 08:17:55 AM

Quote from: BronzeDragon on October 12, 2021, 05:02:01 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 04:16:50 PM
Oddly, I kind of liked having devils and demons having their own names (baatezu and tanar'ri), though you're not wrong about the panic and the motivation behind changing them.

I much prefer having Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths and Gehreleths than Devils, Demons, Daemons and Demodands.

I think the 2E characterization of the Fiends was much more interesting and soulful than the 1E versions. Type VI Demon sounds incredibly lame to me, while Balor directly invokes a feeling of dread.

I make it easy in my world; there's just demons.

Different demons have different approaches to evil, but all of them are dedicated to bringing misery and ruin and to dragging as many souls as possible into Hell out of sheer spite (they lost, know they lost, and are now just trying to do as much damage as possible on the way out because every soul they corrupt denies it it's place in Paradise).

They can't be redeemed because they made their choice with full knowledge of the eternal consequences... better to reign in hell and we prove our power over God by stealing as many of the souls that belong to Him as we can. The demons freely chose and got exactly what they wanted.

The only ones fickle in my setting are the Eldritch; primal spirits too cowardly to pick a side and so have been exiled into the world in physical bodies (as giants, dragons, sylphs, undine, dryads, unicorns, etc.) until they can prove themselves worthy of returning to Heaven (ones seeking the goal are often PCs, those seeking their own path are often opponents for PCs to face).

Found the In Nomine fan!

(Just kidding on you. I like In Nomine.)

Quote from: BronzeDragon on October 12, 2021, 05:02:01 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 04:16:50 PM
Oddly, I kind of liked having devils and demons having their own names (baatezu and tanar'ri), though you're not wrong about the panic and the motivation behind changing them.

I much prefer having Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths and Gehreleths than Devils, Demons, Daemons and Demodands.

I think the 2E characterization of the Fiends was much more interesting and soulful than the 1E versions. Type VI Demon sounds incredibly lame to me, while Balor directly invokes a feeling of dread.

I can't help but make fun of bate-zu and tan'ar'r'i'''', much less the ones named after a notoriously bad car. They're woefully uneuphonic. Balor is good, but that's a name from Celtic mythology rather than fantasy mouth-garbage made up by someone with no grasp of language, and it's not like it's an invention of 2e: "Balor" is right there in a large font at the top of the 1st edition MM entry for the type VI, and further alternate names are listed in the DMG. The idea that the demons are so unknown that they're still referred to as types rather than having colloquial names appeals to me, though they were moving away from that concept by the time of Tsojcanth. Demons and devils by contrast are strongly resonant, though "daemon" was getting a little silly.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 12, 2021, 08:39:46 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 12, 2021, 08:17:55 AM

Quote from: BronzeDragon on October 12, 2021, 05:02:01 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 05, 2021, 04:16:50 PM
Oddly, I kind of liked having devils and demons having their own names (baatezu and tanar'ri), though you're not wrong about the panic and the motivation behind changing them.

I much prefer having Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths and Gehreleths than Devils, Demons, Daemons and Demodands.

I think the 2E characterization of the Fiends was much more interesting and soulful than the 1E versions. Type VI Demon sounds incredibly lame to me, while Balor directly invokes a feeling of dread.

I make it easy in my world; there's just demons.

Different demons have different approaches to evil, but all of them are dedicated to bringing misery and ruin and to dragging as many souls as possible into Hell out of sheer spite (they lost, know they lost, and are now just trying to do as much damage as possible on the way out because every soul they corrupt denies it it's place in Paradise).

They can't be redeemed because they made their choice with full knowledge of the eternal consequences... better to reign in hell and we prove our power over God by stealing as many of the souls that belong to Him as we can. The demons freely chose and got exactly what they wanted.

The only ones fickle in my setting are the Eldritch; primal spirits too cowardly to pick a side and so have been exiled into the world in physical bodies (as giants, dragons, sylphs, undine, dryads, unicorns, etc.) until they can prove themselves worthy of returning to Heaven (ones seeking the goal are often PCs, those seeking their own path are often opponents for PCs to face).

Found the In Nomine fan!

(Just kidding on you. I like In Nomine.)

I've just come to the conclusion that heroic fantasy settings are more interesting when there are extremes. Gray vs. Grey morality might be more realistic, but it's also something you can experience in real life just by turning on the news... so it's less of an escape.

Having stark blacks and whites in addition to the greys in between helps a lot in keeping a setting from degenerating into mush.

Most important I've found is a willingness to play at least some of the heroic tropes straight rather than as subversions. The seeming big good turning out to actually be no better than the bad guy (or even worse; while the bad guy will often be given some motive or background element to make them seem almost justified if you just squint a bit) is such a tired out and overused trope trotted out by the cultural subversives at this point that playing the big good and big bad straight actually feels fresh.

As for specific types; I leaned into Semitic and Assyrian mythology for the most part; Ifrit (fire/smoke), Jinn (miasmas), Shedim (storms), Kul'ul (briny depths; the last one being a variant of Kulullû; a fish man) with Moloch, Lilith, Pazuzu and Tiamat as names demon lords (I'm not using the OGL so Tiamat gets to be a proper one-headed demonic sea serpent instead of a five-headed dragon goddess).

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 03:41:52 PM
...
This is why my Angels (or Primal Spirits as they're called in the setting) and Demons are explicitly the same type of entity in my setting. The only inherent difference is the side they chose in relation to the purpose of Creation.

The demons lost, were exiled to the Outer Darkness and The Great Barrier erected to forever bar them from Creation (unless a foolish mortal inside Creation opens a door for them, but even then they need a tether to not be immediately re-ejected once the spell ends).

The main reason anyone would even call on a demon is because primal magic is only gifted to individuals based on the need for it to advance the Source's will (translation bring about the salvation of souls) and never to someone seeking power for its own sake.
...
The primary flip of expectations in my setting is that the monotheisc faith associated with the primal spirits/angels is the oldest know religion (called simply "The Old Faith"), is generally seen as "primitive" by the moderns who adhere to the polytheistic "Via Praetorum" and so is mostly practiced by barbarians and remnant ethnic groups.

The other bit is that the world is also explicitly pre-"Christian." There is a belief among some sects of the Old Faith called "The Promise" which is essentially for the coming of a Messiah to redeem the world that was damaged by the demons and their human followers in the pre-history of the world. So it's a lot more Old Testament Judges and Prophets vs. the hierarchies of the Medieval Christian Church.

I make it easy in my world; there's just demons.

Different demons have different approaches to evil, but all of them are dedicated to bringing misery and ruin and to dragging as many souls as possible into Hell out of sheer spite (they lost, know they lost, and are now just trying to do as much damage as possible on the way out because every soul they corrupt denies it it's place in Paradise).

They can't be redeemed because they made their choice with full knowledge of the eternal consequences... better to reign in hell and we prove our power over God by stealing as many of the souls that belong to Him as we can. The demons freely chose and got exactly what they wanted.

The only ones fickle in my setting are the Eldritch; primal spirits too cowardly to pick a side and so have been exiled into the world in physical bodies (as giants, dragons, sylphs, undine, dryads, unicorns, etc.) until they can prove themselves worthy of returning to Heaven (ones seeking the goal are often PCs, those seeking their own path are often opponents for PCs to face).

I like a lot of where you are going with this.

Keeping things 'Old-testament' is a great way to get a monotheistic faith that is relatable and avoid going all left-field weird "totally-not" Christianity belief system.

In your setting how does the old faith pass down spiritual knowledge? Is it an Oral tradition?

Or maybe they have sacred scriptures written down in a Book of Remembrance that was begun by their first Prophet, who also happened to be the first man in creation?  That would be cool...

Quote from: Jaeger on October 12, 2021, 07:28:21 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 03:41:52 PM
...
This is why my Angels (or Primal Spirits as they're called in the setting) and Demons are explicitly the same type of entity in my setting. The only inherent difference is the side they chose in relation to the purpose of Creation.

The demons lost, were exiled to the Outer Darkness and The Great Barrier erected to forever bar them from Creation (unless a foolish mortal inside Creation opens a door for them, but even then they need a tether to not be immediately re-ejected once the spell ends).

The main reason anyone would even call on a demon is because primal magic is only gifted to individuals based on the need for it to advance the Source's will (translation bring about the salvation of souls) and never to someone seeking power for its own sake.
...
The primary flip of expectations in my setting is that the monotheisc faith associated with the primal spirits/angels is the oldest know religion (called simply "The Old Faith"), is generally seen as "primitive" by the moderns who adhere to the polytheistic "Via Praetorum" and so is mostly practiced by barbarians and remnant ethnic groups.

The other bit is that the world is also explicitly pre-"Christian." There is a belief among some sects of the Old Faith called "The Promise" which is essentially for the coming of a Messiah to redeem the world that was damaged by the demons and their human followers in the pre-history of the world. So it's a lot more Old Testament Judges and Prophets vs. the hierarchies of the Medieval Christian Church.

I make it easy in my world; there's just demons.

Different demons have different approaches to evil, but all of them are dedicated to bringing misery and ruin and to dragging as many souls as possible into Hell out of sheer spite (they lost, know they lost, and are now just trying to do as much damage as possible on the way out because every soul they corrupt denies it it's place in Paradise).

They can't be redeemed because they made their choice with full knowledge of the eternal consequences... better to reign in hell and we prove our power over God by stealing as many of the souls that belong to Him as we can. The demons freely chose and got exactly what they wanted.

The only ones fickle in my setting are the Eldritch; primal spirits too cowardly to pick a side and so have been exiled into the world in physical bodies (as giants, dragons, sylphs, undine, dryads, unicorns, etc.) until they can prove themselves worthy of returning to Heaven (ones seeking the goal are often PCs, those seeking their own path are often opponents for PCs to face).

I like a lot of where you are going with this.

Keeping things 'Old-testament' is a great way to get a monotheistic faith that is relatable and avoid going all left-field weird "totally-not" Christianity belief system.

In your setting how does the old faith pass down spiritual knowledge? Is it an Oral tradition?

Or maybe they have sacred scriptures written down in a Book of Remembrance that was begun by their first Prophet, who also happened to be the first man in creation?  That would be cool...

Or you could go all in on a totally Christian monotheism, doesn't mean other religions don't exist, it only means that there's only one true faith.

Quote from: Jaeger on October 12, 2021, 07:28:21 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 08, 2021, 03:41:52 PM
...
This is why my Angels (or Primal Spirits as they're called in the setting) and Demons are explicitly the same type of entity in my setting. The only inherent difference is the side they chose in relation to the purpose of Creation.

The demons lost, were exiled to the Outer Darkness and The Great Barrier erected to forever bar them from Creation (unless a foolish mortal inside Creation opens a door for them, but even then they need a tether to not be immediately re-ejected once the spell ends).

The main reason anyone would even call on a demon is because primal magic is only gifted to individuals based on the need for it to advance the Source's will (translation bring about the salvation of souls) and never to someone seeking power for its own sake.
...
The primary flip of expectations in my setting is that the monotheisc faith associated with the primal spirits/angels is the oldest know religion (called simply "The Old Faith"), is generally seen as "primitive" by the moderns who adhere to the polytheistic "Via Praetorum" and so is mostly practiced by barbarians and remnant ethnic groups.

The other bit is that the world is also explicitly pre-"Christian." There is a belief among some sects of the Old Faith called "The Promise" which is essentially for the coming of a Messiah to redeem the world that was damaged by the demons and their human followers in the pre-history of the world. So it's a lot more Old Testament Judges and Prophets vs. the hierarchies of the Medieval Christian Church.

I make it easy in my world; there's just demons.

Different demons have different approaches to evil, but all of them are dedicated to bringing misery and ruin and to dragging as many souls as possible into Hell out of sheer spite (they lost, know they lost, and are now just trying to do as much damage as possible on the way out because every soul they corrupt denies it it's place in Paradise).

They can't be redeemed because they made their choice with full knowledge of the eternal consequences... better to reign in hell and we prove our power over God by stealing as many of the souls that belong to Him as we can. The demons freely chose and got exactly what they wanted.

The only ones fickle in my setting are the Eldritch; primal spirits too cowardly to pick a side and so have been exiled into the world in physical bodies (as giants, dragons, sylphs, undine, dryads, unicorns, etc.) until they can prove themselves worthy of returning to Heaven (ones seeking the goal are often PCs, those seeking their own path are often opponents for PCs to face).

I like a lot of where you are going with this.

Keeping things 'Old-testament' is a great way to get a monotheistic faith that is relatable and avoid going all left-field weird "totally-not" Christianity belief system.

In your setting how does the old faith pass down spiritual knowledge? Is it an Oral tradition?

Or maybe they have sacred scriptures written down in a Book of Remembrance that was begun by their first Prophet, who also happened to be the first man in creation?  That would be cool...

Well, it varies a bit with Sect; because one of the first things to know about the Old Faith is that not unified and hasn't been since the fall of the near mythical First Empire of Man (which might be best understood in the game setting as being roughly akin to what Ancient Egypt was in our late 19th century).

The short version of that is that after the demons were cast out Man built their own empire and worshiped the Source. During this time the original Speakers (a common alternate translation for the Hebrew word for prophet) were replaced by an organized priesthood who began to write down the history and the dogmas.

But man had been corrupted by their time being ruled by the demons and desired the same luxuries the demons had enjoyed from the fruits of men's labors. So they used the now lost branch of arcane magic called biomancy to transform animals into beastmen (minotaurs, lizardmen, centaurs, etc.) to slave for them as they had slaved for the demons. It was about this time that the prayers to the Source started to go unanswered and the priesthood turned to arcane magic to produce their miracles.

Then the beastmen rebelled, just as men had rebelled against the demons, and with the aid of a pantheon of twelve animal-headed gods. The beastmen tore down the First Empire of Man as man's prayers for deliverance went unanswered by the Source.

In their defeat, man did not blame themselves for their sins against The Source; they blamed the Source for not intervening to save them from the consequences of their actions and so adopted the religion of their conquerors... the most modern incarnation of which is called the Via Praetorum (i.e. the Praetorian Way, official state religion of the recently fallen Praetorian Empire). The official position became that Source was a lie created by the primal spirits and the primal spirits were little better than demons.

Thus, the Old Faith became a minority and often persecuted religion followed and maintained by only three groups;

- the Eldritch (and their human students): the Eldritch are primal spirits exiled into physical bodies for their cowardice in not picking a side in the war between the primal spirits and the demons until they had earned their redemptions (this based on the folk beliefs about the fae and various nature spirits being angels neither good enough for heaven nor wicked enough for hell).

When the Cataclysm struck, a number of them saw the opportunity to redeem themselves by spreading their knowledge of the Source and his worship among the barbarian survivors, ironically using the same argument that Men had been abandoned by the gods of the Via Praetorum. These followers of the Old Faith emphasize a personal relationship with The Source, often filtered through the personal elemental affinity of the Eldritch who brought the knowledge to them. This has in turn brought the primal spirits back to them and for mystics able to wield primal magic to be born among them (called "Sorcerers" because their magic comes from The Source).

They're basically rebuilding an oral tradition based on stories and sayings shared with them by the Eldritch and with a new line of Speakers committing these to memory and passing them on to chosen acolytes.

- the Remnant: before the fall of the First Empire, men and women of particular faith who had rejected the Empire's decadence were called as Speakers by the primal spirits to gather members of the faithful and take them far away from the First Empire. When news of the empire's fall reached them they knew they were a people chosen by The Source and so continued in the Old Faith.

Persecution kept these groups fairly small and isolated from each other, but they had the written texts which they copied and transmitted to their people, albeit often with the flavor of their respective Speakers and their successors attached to any supplemental works.

- The Malfeans: when the demons needed taskmasters for their human slaves, they bred with the most comely of the humans to create the Malfeans. Humans twisted by demonic essence that breeds true through every generation. Despite being just more favored slaves, the Malfeans were the face of man's captors and so faced brutal reprisals when the Demon Empire collapsed and the survivors were forced to flee into the harshest and most distant reaches of the world.

The oral history of the Malfeans holds that, before the demons were cast into the outer darkness, the leader of the primal spirits came to the Malfeans and spirited them out before they could be trapped in the same magics that would forever bar the demons from the world. When the Prince of the Primal Spirits had delivered them to safety, he made the Malfeans a promise. They must atone for their sins, but if they would swear to The Covenant with The Source and remain faithful, in the fullness of time the Source would send a Redeemer to end their curse and their persecution.

Thus, rather ironically, those most visibly tainted by the original sins of their ancestors are among the most faithful to what is now called the Old Faith. Their Speakers faithfully commit the teachings said to have been given to them directly by The Source after their deliverance from the Demon Empire to memory and pass them on to their acolytes and to the people. One of the Malfean peoples' pass times is contests where storytellers weave the tenants of the Old Faith into their narratives in clever ways and are judged by the Speakers for their accuracy and the people for how entertaining the resulting story is.

The general lore and teachings of the Old Faith tends to fall under the the truism "The important things are often simple. The simple things are often hard."

One example of an Old Faith profession is "You are all the beloved children of The Source. Love one another. The world is a gift from your loving Creator. Care for it as you would a treasured heirloom."

Many of its practices center around seeking spiritual communion with The Source through meditation and contemplation. They also venerate the primal spirits and honored ancestors as intercessors between Men and The Source. Their public rites include the anointing of newborns, marriage, funerals, acts of atonement and an oath called The Covenant that followers swear to when they come of age.

As mentioned, their religious leaders are called Speakers (akin to prophets), but they also acknowledge Mystics who are gifted with the ability to work wonders by The Source as worthy of respect (though not necessarily as religious leaders).

Mystics are akin to the Biblical Judges and while they're available as a PC class, the fluff associated with them is that they are chosen by The Source to receive supernatural gifts; it is not something you can acquire by your own effort (basically keeping with doctrines distinguishing between gifts recieved by God's will; ergo good; and the seeking out supernatural power to work your own will; ergo bad... demon worship and necromancy in the setting being common examples of the latter).

And that's just The Old Faith. There's also The Via Praetorum of Praetorian Empire (akin to the Roman state religion), Bestianism (the original religion of the Beastmen), and the Astral Court of the Elves. Similarly, because all the gods are distant and rarely heard outside of dreams and visions and the otherworlds unreachable by the living, there also exist agnostics and even atheists (it is a not uncommon belief among wizards that the gods and primal spirits are just self-aware programs within the Arcane Web and so are worthy of respect for their power, but not of worship since they were probably created by humans in the distant past).

But this answer is already quite long so I'll just say that the section on religion is 16 pages and only barely covers the basics (there are also some particulars in the species section; ex. the nearby Orc empire worships a variation of the Via Praetorum that includes their deified emperor who claimed descent from the last Praetorian Emperor... the orcs of the setting are humans mutated by the Cataclysm so this claim might even be true).

Quote from: kidkaos2 on October 12, 2021, 03:52:23 AM

Quote from: jhkim on October 10, 2021, 01:14:23 AM
As I noted above, this isn't what it says. It's not reversing the morality of demons. It's allowing for exceptions of a demon seeking redemption or quitting the game -- or a disillusioned angel or fallen angel.

Whether they are all good or only some of them are good isn't the point.  Demons aren't good.  They have virtually always been evil incarnate.  That's the point, and making good demons serves no purpose other than to virtue signal how hip they are to current social justice philosophy. It removes the heroic good vs evil mythic quality of the game and replaces it with moral relativism instead.

kidkaos2 - Have you read Good Omens or seen the adaptation? I've used it as an example in discussion with you, but you haven't mentioned it in your replies. There are other examples. Pat linked the game account Tales of Wyre earlier, which is another example,

https://www.enworld.org/threads/tales-of-wyre.58227/

The short form is, I don't think these show moral relativism. If you're not willing to discuss these cases, are there any you would discuss?

BTW, for Christians who really want to play a Christian, the Pathology Guy (http://pathguy.com/), a pathologist who's a big D&D fan, had the suggestion of 'prayer fellowships' that would preserve most of the polytheistic mechanics while still allowing your Christian cleric to follow God. By 5e rules you could have prayer fellowships of life, light, etc. Nobody says the church has to have the same shape in the fantasy world it does in ours.

There's been some interesting discussion (theologically speaking) about what God actually meant with the first Commandment.

The text is usually, 'Thou shalt not have any other gods before me' -- but it doesn't say 'thou shalt have NO other god beside me'. Which suggests that God only insisted on being given top billing in any veneration, not that he would be the sole act.

Quote from: Null42 on October 13, 2021, 07:59:54 AM
BTW, for Christians who really want to play a Christian, the Pathology Guy (http://pathguy.com/), a pathologist who's a big D&D fan, had the suggestion of 'prayer fellowships' that would preserve most of the polytheistic mechanics while still allowing your Christian cleric to follow God. By 5e rules you could have prayer fellowships of life, light, etc. Nobody says the church has to have the same shape in the fantasy world it does in ours.

Or you can play games that support a Christian viewpoint instead of giving money to big corporations that hate Christians.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 13, 2021, 08:22:58 AM

Quote from: Null42 on October 13, 2021, 07:59:54 AM
BTW, for Christians who really want to play a Christian, the Pathology Guy (http://pathguy.com/), a pathologist who's a big D&D fan, had the suggestion of 'prayer fellowships' that would preserve most of the polytheistic mechanics while still allowing your Christian cleric to follow God. By 5e rules you could have prayer fellowships of life, light, etc. Nobody says the church has to have the same shape in the fantasy world it does in ours.

Or you can play games that support a Christian viewpoint instead of giving money to big corporations that hate Christians.

I'll settle for games that aren't designed by people who want to destroy Western civilization, root and branch.  By some definitions of "support a Christian viewpoint", those games will necessarily be somewhat aligned, but there's a lot of room in that part of the Venn diagram for things that don't seem to support anything in particular.