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Author Topic: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)  (Read 4158 times)

Pat

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2021, 08:41:38 PM »
Ever since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels.

To the point that good angels is actually a novelty in modern times. Im kinda sick of evil angels.
Concur.

There should be a word for when someone tries to be edgy and contrarian, in the exact same way as everyone else. It would have nearly infinite uses in fiction and politics.

Pat

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2021, 08:46:34 PM »
Does D&D have a unified pantheon these days? How can you have evil without that? First define good, then you can have evil. If you have multiple gods who are poorly defined, then what's good?

9-point alignment is stupid. We should have never left Law/Neutral/Chaos. That was clear. God is lawful, hence men are lawful. Demons are chaotic and therefore they are evil to God. Don't worship God? Then you could be neutral or chaotic like a dirty elf.
Firstly, don't start with gods. Start with religions. Religions define good and evil. So use their definitions. That way, it's perfectly fine if you have paladins holy smiting other paladins, as long as they come from different traditions where the other's point of view is defined as evil. From a D&D cosmological standpoint, each religion would have their own set of divine realms in the astral, instead of everything being forced onto a wheel with 16 spokes. You'd probably have to ditch law and chaos as universals, though.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2021, 08:48:59 PM »
Like I said several posts ago, a Demon might become Good, by following that exact path above, and it should be a strugle to finally achieve forgiveness and stop being a Demon. Ergo you can't have Good Demons or Evil Angels.

Or let me put it in a different way, fallen Angels already have a name, we call them Demons, likewise good "demons" already have a name, we call them angels. It's basic Theology my dude.

   Part of the problem with drawing the parallel is that, at least in Catholic theology, angels can no longer fall and demons can no longer repent--the former because they now possess the Beatific Vision and are thus confirmed in goodness; the latter, because they made their choice with a complete understanding and full commitment of the will.

  This is one of several reasons that I prefer to refer to the D&D creatures as 'fiends' and 'celestials'--they're too material, mutable, and weak for me to find them realistic representations of the real things. :)

True, but lets say you're a practicing Christian and want to write some fiction with a small amount of the real thing in it for verosimilitude and yet have those in your fiction, you would need to follow the path I delineated. Just to make it seem possible without going too deep into the Theology.
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Armchair Gamer

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2021, 09:11:01 PM »
Like I said several posts ago, a Demon might become Good, by following that exact path above, and it should be a strugle to finally achieve forgiveness and stop being a Demon. Ergo you can't have Good Demons or Evil Angels.

Or let me put it in a different way, fallen Angels already have a name, we call them Demons, likewise good "demons" already have a name, we call them angels. It's basic Theology my dude.

   Part of the problem with drawing the parallel is that, at least in Catholic theology, angels can no longer fall and demons can no longer repent--the former because they now possess the Beatific Vision and are thus confirmed in goodness; the latter, because they made their choice with a complete understanding and full commitment of the will.

  This is one of several reasons that I prefer to refer to the D&D creatures as 'fiends' and 'celestials'--they're too material, mutable, and weak for me to find them realistic representations of the real things. :)

True, but lets say you're a practicing Christian and want to write some fiction with a small amount of the real thing in it for verosimilitude and yet have those in your fiction, you would need to follow the path I delineated. Just to make it seem possible without going too deep into the Theology.

Yep. I suffer from the curse of the expert in this regard, but you can have works that are thematically solid while taking liberties with the details.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2021, 09:18:19 PM »
Like I said several posts ago, a Demon might become Good, by following that exact path above, and it should be a strugle to finally achieve forgiveness and stop being a Demon. Ergo you can't have Good Demons or Evil Angels.

Or let me put it in a different way, fallen Angels already have a name, we call them Demons, likewise good "demons" already have a name, we call them angels. It's basic Theology my dude.

   Part of the problem with drawing the parallel is that, at least in Catholic theology, angels can no longer fall and demons can no longer repent--the former because they now possess the Beatific Vision and are thus confirmed in goodness; the latter, because they made their choice with a complete understanding and full commitment of the will.

  This is one of several reasons that I prefer to refer to the D&D creatures as 'fiends' and 'celestials'--they're too material, mutable, and weak for me to find them realistic representations of the real things. :)

True, but lets say you're a practicing Christian and want to write some fiction with a small amount of the real thing in it for verosimilitude and yet have those in your fiction, you would need to follow the path I delineated. Just to make it seem possible without going too deep into the Theology.

Yep. I suffer from the curse of the expert in this regard, but you can have works that are thematically solid while taking liberties with the details.

Same here, but I was trying to make it possible to have evil angels and good demons from thw word go, which is why I took only enough of the Theology to make it verosimil for the casual reader.

And it wopuld work perfectly in an RPG: Say you want to play a Tiefling, a Good one, well, since Tieflings (in my houserules) are born evil you'll need to go thru a redemption arch, not unlike to the redemption quest for a Paladin that strayed from the true path.

At the end of it, after strugling with your nature, if you succeed you'll become something else, an aasimar. Which will also change your powers of course.

I've only had the one player that wanted to play a Tiefling go thru, most refuse to play at my table or choose a different race. Which is fine with me since I dislike with a passion the special snowflake races.
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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Eric Diaz

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2021, 09:18:46 PM »
Ever since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels.

Sources like Spawn, Good Omens, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer have had good demons. Sources like The Prophecy and Supernatural had evil-ish angels.

Do people see these as being part of an SJW trend? I've frequently enjoyed these in fiction, and it doesn't seem that recent to me.

Since the 80s? Well, we could say since William Blake or even Milton (making Lucifer a compelling figure) and Dante (Hell is a lot cooler... okay, that's a stretch).

I just think it is ironic that 2e did away with them, and now good-aligned demons are part of RAW.
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Aglondir

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2021, 11:07:16 PM »
TYPICALLY Figures of ancient and terrible evil, balors TYPICALLY rule as generals over demonic armies, TYPICALLY yearning to seize power while TYPICALLY destroying any creatures that oppose them.... sometimes fueled by hatred, sometimes by the power of friendship...

I thought you were exaggerating until I read the link. WOTC takes a break from alignment for two products, while they thoughtfully reconsider the issue, and their profound solution is "typically?"

More amused than outraged.

i like the new rule on languages: New characters start knowing Common and one other language that you and your DM agree is appropriate for your character. EDIT: And the monster stat block looks nice.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2021, 11:35:10 PM »
Ever since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels.

Sources like Spawn, Good Omens, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer have had good demons. Sources like The Prophecy and Supernatural had evil-ish angels.

Do people see these as being part of an SJW trend? I've frequently enjoyed these in fiction, and it doesn't seem that recent to me.

Since the 80s? Well, we could say since William Blake or even Milton (making Lucifer a compelling figure) and Dante (Hell is a lot cooler... okay, that's a stretch).

I just think it is ironic that 2e did away with them, and now good-aligned demons are part of RAW.

If the religious censors still had any political or social power making even some Demons Good and even some Angels evil this would reignite the satanic panic.

Good thing they don't.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

David Johansen

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2021, 11:53:02 PM »
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good demons to do nothing.

Still, representing the forces of light as hate filled, bigoted, and intolerant certainly has some history in fantasy literature.

Milton certainly makes Lucifer, his protagonist, a heroic figure with noble sentiments.

In the end, these are fantasy games and the bad guys should at least have the decency to wear black Stetsons.
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Stephen Tannhauser

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2021, 01:09:23 AM »
Ever since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels. Sources like Spawn, Good Omens, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer have had good demons. Sources like The Prophecy and Supernatural had evil-ish angels.

Do people see these as being part of an SJW trend?

The idea that individual angels could fall or demons find redemption isn't an SJ trope. The implication that "good and evil" are simply individual, equally meaningless labels chosen by equally nasty and unsympathetic beings solely to differentiate themselves -- basically no more than supernatural "gang colours" -- definitely is, and it's what too many instances of the "bad angels / sympathetic demons" trope are used to do.
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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2021, 08:04:07 AM »
I can live with angels that might be caught up in the big picture or not quite understand human frailties. But Geeky has it right; the whole 'evil angel' idea is worn out.

Thorn Drumheller

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2021, 10:42:10 AM »
I don't know if you'll remember, back in the day on ENWorld there was/is a poster named Sepulcrave, or something like that, that had a killer story hour. The premise was there was a succubus that wanted to be redeemed. Seps world (Tales of Wyre) is heavily influenced by religion (but I think Sep studied religions). I think his thread is still there, some poster even made a combined pdf. I highly recommend.

So I don't have a problem with fallen angels/redeemable fiends... .... .... if the game master says so. But in my world, all devils/demons are pure "Evil" and the celestials are "Good"... .. ... unless I say so as the game master.
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2021, 11:04:53 AM »
I don't know if you'll remember, back in the day on ENWorld there was/is a poster named Sepulcrave, or something like that, that had a killer story hour. The premise was there was a succubus that wanted to be redeemed. Seps world (Tales of Wyre) is heavily influenced by religion (but I think Sep studied religions). I think his thread is still there, some poster even made a combined pdf. I highly recommend.

So I don't have a problem with fallen angels/redeemable fiends... .... .... if the game master says so. But in my world, all devils/demons are pure "Evil" and the celestials are "Good"... .. ... unless I say so as the game master.

Thing is, if you can have Good Demons (not redeemed ones that would stop being Demons) and Evil Angels (not Demons that is what Evil Angels are but Angels that manage to be Evil and Angelic) then redemption looses it's meaning.

In order for redemption to work you need the two extremes fixed and never thw two shall meet. This is the road you must travel to earn redemption.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Thorn Drumheller

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2021, 11:15:40 AM »

Thing is, if you can have Good Demons (not redeemed ones that would stop being Demons) and Evil Angels (not Demons that is what Evil Angels are but Angels that manage to be Evil and Angelic) then redemption looses it's meaning.

In order for redemption to work you need the two extremes fixed and never thw two shall meet. This is the road you must travel to earn redemption.

Oh I agree. I hate the bullshit that's done in anime/comics/whatever, it seems like it was/is the rage. And but for this one instance (cause a lot of Seps stuff flew way over my head) I've not seen it done well.
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Pat

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2021, 11:59:17 AM »
I don't know if you'll remember, back in the day on ENWorld there was/is a poster named Sepulcrave, or something like that, that had a killer story hour. The premise was there was a succubus that wanted to be redeemed. Seps world (Tales of Wyre) is heavily influenced by religion (but I think Sep studied religions). I think his thread is still there, some poster even made a combined pdf. I highly recommend.

So I don't have a problem with fallen angels/redeemable fiends... .... .... if the game master says so. But in my world, all devils/demons are pure "Evil" and the celestials are "Good"... .. ... unless I say so as the game master.

Thing is, if you can have Good Demons (not redeemed ones that would stop being Demons) and Evil Angels (not Demons that is what Evil Angels are but Angels that manage to be Evil and Angelic) then redemption looses it's meaning.

In order for redemption to work you need the two extremes fixed and never thw two shall meet. This is the road you must travel to earn redemption.
You might want to read Sepulchrave's Tales of Wyre story hour. It's not just the best gaming fiction I've ever read, but one of the best fantasy stories of any kind. The path of Nahael's redemption is not between two poles, though the story is heavily influenced by a deep understanding of Catholic gnosticism, absolutism, and dualism. But it also weaves in pagan mysticism, transhuman transcendence, richly realized characters, and epic fights using third edition rules.