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Author Topic: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)  (Read 4202 times)

DM_Curt

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2021, 05:54:18 PM »
Meh. No.
At my (5e) table, Demons are Evil, with a capital E. Every. Time.  They will murder, mutilate, fold, spindle, devour and assault you.  They are made of Evil and that's what they do.
Devils too. Although they're more likely to try to sell you a 12yo Camero at 23%APR with a balloon payment at the end.

Quick Quiz!
If you start with an Evil soul, torment it for centuries, allow it an atmosphere where backstabbing, cruelty and Intimidation are the norms for promotion for centuries more, you get a:
1: Demon or Devil. 100% Evil, Kill it on sight. Do we need +2 or Better weapons to hit? Silver or Cold Iron?
2. Same, but we call them Tanarri or Baatzu.
3. Hold on. I got 6 more pages to optimize my Demonkiller Prestige class to fight this.
4. A WotC game designer.
5. Tall dark cutie with horns and rippling abs! A pointed tail that might be prehensile to do...things. Wanna walk up and say Hi? You can roll Persuasion.

I'm thorn between 1&2 and/or 4
4 is a trick answer. WotC quit hiring game designers.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2021, 05:57:11 PM »
Meh. No.
At my (5e) table, Demons are Evil, with a capital E. Every. Time.  They will murder, mutilate, fold, spindle, devour and assault you.  They are made of Evil and that's what they do.
Devils too. Although they're more likely to try to sell you a 12yo Camero at 23%APR with a balloon payment at the end.

Quick Quiz!
If you start with an Evil soul, torment it for centuries, allow it an atmosphere where backstabbing, cruelty and Intimidation are the norms for promotion for centuries more, you get a:
1: Demon or Devil. 100% Evil, Kill it on sight. Do we need +2 or Better weapons to hit? Silver or Cold Iron?
2. Same, but we call them Tanarri or Baatzu.
3. Hold on. I got 6 more pages to optimize my Demonkiller Prestige class to fight this.
4. A WotC game designer.
5. Tall dark cutie with horns and rippling abs! A pointed tail that might be prehensile to do...things. Wanna walk up and say Hi? You can roll Persuasion.

I'm thorn between 1&2 and/or 4
4 is a trick answer. WotC quit hiring game designers.

Thanks, now I have to clean the coffee I spat and coughed all over my desk.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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jhkim

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2021, 06:27:07 PM »
Ever since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels.

Sources like Spawn, Good Omens, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer have had good demons. Sources like The Prophecy and Supernatural had evil-ish angels.

Do people see these as being part of an SJW trend? I've frequently enjoyed these in fiction, and it doesn't seem that recent to me.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2021, 06:35:21 PM »
Ever since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels.

Sources like Spawn, Good Omens, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer have had good demons. Sources like The Prophecy and Supernatural had evil-ish angels.

Do people see these as being part of an SJW trend? I've frequently enjoyed these in fiction, and it doesn't seem that recent to me.

Because the ideology behind the SJWs just spawned into being when they appeared in the secene right?

Not to mention that Spawn isn't a demon, he made a deal with one.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

HappyDaze

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2021, 06:39:10 PM »
Ever since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels.

Sources like Spawn, Good Omens, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer have had good demons. Sources like The Prophecy and Supernatural had evil-ish angels.

Do people see these as being part of an SJW trend? I've frequently enjoyed these in fiction, and it doesn't seem that recent to me.
Not just that, but in d&d, most demons and devils are not fallen celestial, just as a cat is not a fallen dog. There have been fallen celestial that have allied with devils--and some have become devils themselves through the power of Asmodeus (as a god, not merely an archdevil)--but those are the exceptions, not the norm.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2021, 06:41:33 PM »
Ever since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels.

To the point that good angels is actually a novelty in modern times. Im kinda sick of evil angels.

HappyDaze

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2021, 06:52:32 PM »
Ever since the 80s, there have been an increasing number of redeemed demons/devils in fantasy fiction, along with evil-ish angels.

To the point that good angels is actually a novelty in modern times. Im kinda sick of evil angels.
Or eveb the more common Lawful Neutral (Asshole) angels.

jhkim

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2021, 06:59:55 PM »
Because the ideology behind the SJWs just spawned into being when they appeared in the secene right?

Not to mention that Spawn isn't a demon, he made a deal with one.

As I remember it, making a deal with a demon changed Simmons into a Hellspawn, which is a kind of demon. That's what most demons are in that universe - transformed souls of humans condemned to Hell. In any case, the trend goes back earlier, though, like Jack Kirby's Etrigan that debuted in 1972 - who was never human, though he was bound to one.

Did you like any of these, GeekyBugle? While the trope has had its ups and downs, I've enjoyed a number of them.

That said, I agree with Shrieking Banshee that asshole angels are overdone. It especially bugged me in the Supernatural series. If demons are truly supernaturally evil, then there should be true supernatural good.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2021, 07:07:40 PM »
Because the ideology behind the SJWs just spawned into being when they appeared in the secene right?

Not to mention that Spawn isn't a demon, he made a deal with one.

As I remember it, making a deal with a demon changed Simmons into a Hellspawn, which is a kind of demon. That's what most demons are in that universe - transformed souls of humans condemned to Hell. In any case, the trend goes back earlier, though, like Jack Kirby's Etrigan that debuted in 1972 - who was never human, though he was bound to one.

Did you like any of these, GeekyBugle? While the trope has had its ups and downs, I've enjoyed a number of them.

That said, I agree with Shrieking Banshee that asshole angels are overdone. It especially bugged me in the Supernatural series. If demons are truly supernaturally evil, then there should be true supernatural good.

Wrong, Simmons wears the Hellspawn, and has to fight to control it.

Is Etrigan good tho? Nope, it's a Demon and does Good because Merlin bonded him to Jason Blood. It has been shown time and again that without Blood the Demon is Evil, but you keep arguing against stuff I know so well. It's fun!

Edited to add:

It's been overdone because of certain ideology that HATES anything that smells of Christian values, and that's based on everything being subjective, even truth (my truth), this ideology needs to demolish the very human notion that evil does exist (even some Atheists would recognize somethings as Evil), because only then can it become dominant in a culture.

Which is why they infect every subculture including RPGs.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 07:11:38 PM by GeekyBugle »
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

rytrasmi

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2021, 07:46:39 PM »
Does D&D have a unified pantheon these days? How can you have evil without that? First define good, then you can have evil. If you have multiple gods who are poorly defined, then what's good?

9-point alignment is stupid. We should have never left Law/Neutral/Chaos. That was clear. God is lawful, hence men are lawful. Demons are chaotic and therefore they are evil to God. Don't worship God? Then you could be neutral or chaotic like a dirty elf.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2021, 08:07:02 PM »
Does D&D have a unified pantheon these days? How can you have evil without that? First define good, then you can have evil. If you have multiple gods who are poorly defined, then what's good?

9-point alignment is stupid. We should have never left Law/Neutral/Chaos. That was clear. God is lawful, hence men are lawful. Demons are chaotic and therefore they are evil to God. Don't worship God? Then you could be neutral or chaotic like a dirty elf.

It's all relative, there's no good and no evil, everybody is equal in everything, soon you'll be playing D&D the Grey blob simulator, where your grey blob goes on adventures with the other grey blobs on the grey blob world and never have to kill another grey blob.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

jhkim

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2021, 08:18:52 PM »
I agree with Shrieking Banshee that asshole angels are overdone. It especially bugged me in the Supernatural series. If demons are truly supernaturally evil, then there should be true supernatural good.

It's been overdone because of certain ideology that HATES anything that smells of Christian values, and that's based on everything being subjective, even truth (my truth), this ideology needs to demolish the very human notion that evil does exist (even some Atheists would recognize somethings as Evil), because only then can it become dominant in a culture.

While anti-Christian sentiment does exist, I don't think it's inherent in the modern mixing of demons and angels. (And I say this as a practicing Christian.) Personally, I feel redemption and forgiveness are at the core of Christian values. For example, I enjoyed Good Omens more than The Omen which it was parodying -- and I think it even was closer to Christian values. The Omen tried to make it a good act to murder a toddler because of his birth - while Good Omens instead had forgiveness and redemption of the child.

In any case, D&D has *never* been Christian. From the start, it has gone with paganism/polytheism.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2021, 08:33:35 PM »
I agree with Shrieking Banshee that asshole angels are overdone. It especially bugged me in the Supernatural series. If demons are truly supernaturally evil, then there should be true supernatural good.

It's been overdone because of certain ideology that HATES anything that smells of Christian values, and that's based on everything being subjective, even truth (my truth), this ideology needs to demolish the very human notion that evil does exist (even some Atheists would recognize somethings as Evil), because only then can it become dominant in a culture.

While anti-Christian sentiment does exist, I don't think it's inherent in the modern mixing of demons and angels. (And I say this as a practicing Christian.) Personally, I feel redemption and forgiveness are at the core of Christian values. For example, I enjoyed Good Omens more than The Omen which it was parodying -- and I think it even was closer to Christian values. The Omen tried to make it a good act to murder a toddler because of his birth - while Good Omens instead had forgiveness and redemption of the child.

In any case, D&D has *never* been Christian. From the start, it has gone with paganism/polytheism.

Which is why the Cleric (and latter the Paladin too) is modelled after a Christian warrior monk.

Yeah D&D was never Christian, Doesn't mean their pantheon ever worked, as far as I know most polytheist religions have it's demons and angels, clearly deliniated as Evil the first and Good the second. Some even call everything gods, Lesser gods and demigods and still mantain a clear delineation between good and evil. Care to try again?

Yep, redemption is at the core of Christianity, and it involves repentance, penance, forgiveness. You need to repent, renounce the Devil, make penence to earn forgiveness.

Like I said several posts ago, a Demon might become Good, by following that exact path above, and it should be a strugle to finally achieve forgiveness and stop being a Demon. Ergo you can't have Good Demons or Evil Angels.

Or let me put it in a different way, fallen Angels already have a name, we call them Demons, likewise good "demons" already have a name, we call them angels. It's basic Theology my dude.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Armchair Gamer

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2021, 08:38:13 PM »
Like I said several posts ago, a Demon might become Good, by following that exact path above, and it should be a strugle to finally achieve forgiveness and stop being a Demon. Ergo you can't have Good Demons or Evil Angels.

Or let me put it in a different way, fallen Angels already have a name, we call them Demons, likewise good "demons" already have a name, we call them angels. It's basic Theology my dude.

   Part of the problem with drawing the parallel is that, at least in Catholic theology, angels can no longer fall and demons can no longer repent--the former because they now possess the Beatific Vision and are thus confirmed in goodness; the latter, because they made their choice with a complete understanding and full commitment of the will.

  This is one of several reasons that I prefer to refer to the D&D creatures as 'fiends' and 'celestials'--they're too material, mutable, and weak for me to find them realistic representations of the real things. :)

Armchair Gamer

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2021, 08:40:40 PM »
9-point alignment is stupid. We should have never left Law/Neutral/Chaos. That was clear. God is lawful, hence men are lawful. Demons are chaotic and therefore they are evil to God. Don't worship God? Then you could be neutral or chaotic like a dirty elf.

   Nine-point alignment may be salvageable, but it's tough to reconcile with the "Law and Chaos as cosmic sides" approach of the earliest material and with other elements. I actually read the famous Gygax editorial on paladin behavior a few months back, and it felt like attempts to fit a paladin into the polytheistic model that had emerged resulted in a divine command ethics that wound up feeling confusing, arbitrary, and Chaotic. :)