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Author Topic: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)  (Read 4415 times)

Chris24601

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #135 on: October 13, 2021, 11:32:50 AM »
BTW, for Christians who really want to play a Christian, the Pathology Guy (http://pathguy.com/), a pathologist who's a big D&D fan, had the suggestion of 'prayer fellowships' that would preserve most of the polytheistic mechanics while still allowing your Christian cleric to follow God. By 5e rules you could have prayer fellowships of life, light, etc. Nobody says the church has to have the same shape in the fantasy world it does in ours.
Or you can play games that support a Christian viewpoint instead of giving money to big corporations that hate Christians.

I'll settle for games that aren't designed by people who want to destroy Western civilization, root and branch.  By some definitions of "support a Christian viewpoint", those games will necessarily be somewhat aligned, but there's a lot of room in that part of the Venn diagram for things that don't seem to support anything in particular.
The person in question was specifically talking about how you could kinda squint to make something Christian work in 5e despite all the built-in polytheistic assumptions. As such, the specific reference to Christian-themed games felt appropriate as a reply.

If you care enough about Christian themes in your RP, put your money where your mouth is and support games that promote Christian themes.

If you care about a system that doesn’t promote anything all (beyond general Western values… which are ultimately Christian values with the serial numbers filed off) that is obviously where you put your support.

In both cases though I feel you shouldn’t waste your time figuring out how to make a game system antithetical to both sorta work if you squint enough and in so doing justify giving financial support to the people who hate you (i.e. you can still use WotC’s system even though they hate you if you just tilt your head at the right angle and pretend polytheistic social justice gods are the same as Christianity and Western Civilization).

Steven Mitchell

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #136 on: October 13, 2021, 11:55:56 AM »
I'm not disagreeing with you.  It was more of a remark that I've got a much lower bar, but WotC (and some others) cannot even manage to clear that.  Which means you are even more correct than you state--anyone that does want a game that can support Christian themes has even more reason to avoid them.  I mean, if someone with those desires is going to settle for less, at least settle for something in the ballpark, not stick with the polar opposite.

Some people dislike fast food.  They want something prepared with more care.  Fine.  Depending on how strongly they feel it, they might occasionally grab a fast food sandwich when in a hurry.  I would not expect them to deliberately and repeatedly seek out the worst managed, dirtiest, most vile fast food joint in town.  However, people are strange.

Drude

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #137 on: October 13, 2021, 02:16:24 PM »

... so I’ll just say that the section on religion is 16 pages and only barely covers the basics (there are also some particulars in the species section; ex. the nearby Orc empire worships a variation of the Via Praetorum that includes their deified emperor who claimed descent from the last Praetorian Emperor… the orcs of the setting are humans mutated by the Cataclysm so this claim might even be true).

A game with such robust and game provoking lore is quite enticing after wasted time spent in the parched wilderness of one-page rpgs and zines.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #138 on: October 13, 2021, 03:16:30 PM »
Lore

Uh...Any way I could get that somehow? Id be willing to shell out some shells.

Chris24601

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #139 on: October 13, 2021, 04:21:24 PM »

... so I’ll just say that the section on religion is 16 pages and only barely covers the basics (there are also some particulars in the species section; ex. the nearby Orc empire worships a variation of the Via Praetorum that includes their deified emperor who claimed descent from the last Praetorian Emperor… the orcs of the setting are humans mutated by the Cataclysm so this claim might even be true).

A game with such robust and game provoking lore is quite enticing after wasted time spent in the parched wilderness of one-page rpgs and zines.
Lol. Then I might have the game for you. The overall project including the Player's Guide and Game Master's Guide is just a hair over 250,000 words.

For those interested, shoot me a private message and I'll get you the links to the finished beta-test documents.

Here's the Player's Guide Table of Contents;

Chapter 1: Game Rules .......................... 6
Three Important Rules ........................... 12
Basic Glossary ........................................... 13
Initiative and Turns ................................. 14
Action Layout ............................................ 16
Action Use Types ..................................... 17
Distance, Space & Size........................... 18
Targets & Range ....................................... 20
Line of Sight & Effect .............................. 22
The Action Check .................................... 24
Modifiers .................................................... 26
Action Effects & Keywords ................... 28
Duration ..................................................... 30
Movement .................................................. 32

Chapter 2: Actions & Resources ....... 38
Edge, Focus & Heroic Surges................ 38
Basic Actions ............................................. 40
Abilities ....................................................... 42
-Acrobatics (REF) ..................................... 46
-Arcana (INT) ............................................ 48
-Culture (INT) ........................................... 49
-Deceit (PRE) ............................................ 50
-Engineering (INT) ................................... 52
-Fitness (END) .......................................... 54
-Insight (WIT) ........................................... 56
-Intimidate (PRE) ..................................... 57
-Medicine (WIT) ...................................... 58
-Nature (WIT) ........................................... 59
-Persuade (PRE) ....................................... 60
-Stealth (REF)............................................ 61

Chapter 3: Creating a Character ....... 62
Player Motivations .................................. 64
Heroic Virtues........................................... 66
Basic Player Character Traits ............... 68
Improving your Character .................... 69
Picking Options as you Level ............... 70

Chapter 4: Player Species .................. 72
Species Entries ......................................... 76
Beastman ................................................... 78
Dwarf........................................................... 86
Eldritch........................................................ 92
Elf ................................................................102
Fetch ..........................................................110
Gnome ......................................................116
Golem........................................................122
Human ......................................................128
Malfean .....................................................136
Mutant.......................................................148

Chapter 5: Classes ............................. 156
Weapon & Implement Attacks ......... 158

Fighter ....................................................... 160
Gadgeteer ................................................ 162
Mastermind ............................................. 164
Mystic ........................................................ 166
Theurge .................................................... 168
Wizard ...................................................... 170

Fighter Paths ........................................... 172
-Brigand (slayer) .................................... 172
-Captain (enabler) ................................ 172
-Defender (guardian) ........................... 174
-Disabler (controller) ........................... 176
-Ravager (slayer) ................................... 177
-Sentinel (guardian) ............................. 177
-Sharpshooter (controller) ................. 178
-Striker (slayer) ...................................... 178

Spellcasting Paths ................................. 180
-Abjurer (guardian) .............................. 180
-Benedictor (enabler) .......................... 182
-Empowered (slayer) ........................... 182
-Interdictor (controller) ...................... 183
-Maledictor (slayer) .............................. 183
-Summoner (controller) ...................... 184

Aspects ..................................................... 186
Clever Tricks ........................................... 188
Dweomers ............................................... 190
Minor Spells ............................................ 191
Talents ...................................................... 192
-Basic Talents......................................... 192
-Casting Talents .................................... 194
-Infliction Talents ................................. 198
-Martial Talents ..................................... 206
-Stance Talents...................................... 210

Chapter 6: Backgrounds................... 212
Background Elements .......................... 215
Languages .............................................. 215
Skilled Abilities .................................... 216
Boons ...................................................... 216
Basic Boons ............................................. 217

Arcanist .................................................... 218
Aristocrat ................................................. 220
Artisan ...................................................... 224
Barbarian ................................................. 228
Commoner .............................................. 232
Entertainer .............................................. 236
Military ..................................................... 240
Outlaw ...................................................... 244
Religious ...................................................248
Traveler .....................................................250

Cantrips ....................................................254
Physical Adept Boons ..........................255
Primal Boons ...........................................256
Utility Spells ............................................258
Shift Form ................................................260
Background Companions ...................262
-Bodyguard .............................................263
-Enforcer ..................................................265
-Familiar...................................................266
-Followers................................................267
-Loyal Beast ............................................268
-Medic ......................................................270
-Warriors .................................................271

Chapter 7: Equipment....................... 272
Wealth and Money .............................272
Starting Equipment.............................272
Equipment Quality .............................274
Damaging Equipment ........................274
Selling Equipment ...............................275
Trade Goods .........................................275
Armor ........................................................276
Weapons ..................................................278
-Weapon Qualities ...............................280
-Weapons Statistics Tables................282
Spellcasting Implements .....................284
Adventuring Gear ..................................288
Food, Lodging & Services ....................292
Beasts & Tack .........................................294
Vehicles ....................................................302
-Designing a Vehicle ............................302
-Vehicle Features ..................................303
-Vehicle Layout......................................306
-Vehicle Equipment .............................306
-Vehicle Examples ................................307
Siege Engines ..........................................308
Land and Structures ..............................310
Hazards & Traps .....................................313
Magic Items .............................................318
-Permanent Item Limits......................320
-Magic Consumables ...........................320
-Magic Rituals ........................................322
-Teleportation Circles .........................329
-Permanent Magic Items ....................330

Appendix 1: Keyword Glossary ...... 336
Appendix 2: The Count of Time...... 341
Appendix 3: The Cosmos ................. 342
Appendix 4: Praetorian Religion .... 344
-The Old Faith.......................................... 344
-The Via Praetorum ............................... 350
-Bestianism ............................................... 354
-The Astral Court .................................... 356
Appendix 5: Common Hirelings ..... 360
Character Sheet ................................. 362

Here's the GM's Guide Contents;

Chapter 1: Setting up the Game .......... 6
You are the Narrator ................................. 6
You’re Not Alone ........................................ 7
Engaging Your Players .............................. 8
Using the Heroic Virtues ....................... 10
Setting the Tone ...................................... 12
Making the Setting Your Own............. 16
Solving the Mysteries ............................. 18
Integrating the Player’s Characters ... 20
Optional Rules .......................................... 22
-Character Creation & Leveling ............ 22
-Combat Rules .......................................... 26

Chapter 2: Creating Your Setting ..... 28
Step One: Region Basics ........................ 30
-The Climate ............................................ 30
-The Terrain .............................................. 32
-Regional Boundaries ............................ 33
-Unusual Features................................... 34
Step Two: Realms .................................... 36
-Realm Numbers and Locations ......... 36
-Population Size ...................................... 38
-Demographics ........................................ 38
-Population Distribution ...................... 39
-Species Integration ............................... 40
-Realm Government .............................. 42
-Realm Suffrage ....................................... 43
-Legal Systems ......................................... 44
-Religious Tolerance .............................. 46
-Military Force.......................................... 47
-Realm Resources ................................... 48
Step Three: Settlements ........................ 50
-Settlement Numbers and Size .......... 50
-Settlement Confluences ..................... 52
-Settlement Advantages ....................... 53
-Points of Interest ................................... 54
-Settlement Services .............................. 55
-Settlement Obstacles .......................... 56
Step Four: Names and Integration ..... 58
-Basic Naming Advice ........................... 58
-Integration ............................................... 60
-A Step at a Time .................................... 60
Step Five: Ruins ........................................ 64
-Ruin Distance ......................................... 66
-Ruin Size .................................................. 66
-Ruin Purpose .......................................... 67
-Ruin Condition ....................................... 68
-Ruin Importance .................................... 70
-Ruin Threats............................................ 72
-Threat Relations ..................................... 73
-Ruin Danger ............................................ 74
-Location Contents ................................. 76
Step Six: Events ......................................... 78
-Historical Events .................................... 78
-Current Events ........................................ 80
-Foreshadowed Events .......................... 81
-Notable Events Table ............................ 82

Chapter 3: Populating Your World ... 84
Creating NPCs ........................................... 84
Death and NPCs ...................................... 84
Non-Combat NPCs ................................ 86
Allied Combat NPCs ............................. 86
Normal Creatures .................................. 87
Custom Creatures.................................. 87
Re-fluff ....................................................... 87
Re-Level .................................................... 88
Standard Build ........................................ 90
PC-Light Build ...................................... 100

Astral Servitors (optional species).... 102
Diabolist (optional class) ..................... 106
Necromancer (optional class) ............ 110

Chapter 4: Adventures & Conflicts 114
Conflict CP Budgets ............................. 116
Three "Rules" of Battle Design .......... 116
Improvised Actions ............................... 118
Afflictions ................................................. 120
Managing Larger Battles ..................... 124
The Environment................................... 126
-Constructed Terrain ........................... 128
-Natural Terrain .................................... 132
-Supernatural Terrain ......................... 134
-Lighting .................................................. 134
-Weather and Atmosphere ............... 136
Forest Environments .......................... 138
Plains Environments .......................... 139
Hills Environments ............................. 140
Mountain Environments ................... 141
Swamp/Marsh Environments.......... 142
Desert Environments ......................... 143
The Deep ............................................... 144

Chapter 5: Campaign Rewards ....... 146
Types of Rewards ................................ 146
Growth Rewards ................................. 146
Renown Awards .................................. 149
Wealth Rewards ................................. 151
Magic Rewards .................................... 152
Artifacts.................................................. 154

Chapter 6: Standard Opponents ..... 158
Opponent Master List & CP Values.....162

Men ............................................................166
-Centaurs .................................................168
-Crocodin ................................................170
-Dracosi ...................................................172
-Dwarves .................................................174
-Goblins ...................................................178
-Golems ...................................................180
-Humans ..................................................184
-Kobolds ..................................................192
-Malfeans .................................................194
-Minotaurs...............................................198
-Myrmidons ............................................200
-Orcs & Ogres ........................................202
-Trolls........................................................208
-Troglodytes ...........................................210
-Wolfen ....................................................212

Beasts ........................................................214
-Bears .......................................................215
-Chimera .................................................216
-Crocodiles..............................................218
-Drakes ....................................................220
-Great Cats..............................................222
-Griffins ....................................................224
-Hell Hounds ..........................................226
-Hell Horse..............................................228
-Hellcats...................................................229
-Hydra ......................................................230
-Leviathans..............................................233
-Manticores .............................................234
-Rams, Dire .............................................235
-Rocs .........................................................236
-Rustwyrms .............................................237
-Snakes .....................................................238
-Swarms ...................................................240
-Wolves ....................................................242
-Wyverns .................................................244

Astral Servitors .......................................246
-Banshees & Barghests .......................247
-Elves ........................................................248
-Fetches ...................................................252
-The Furies ..............................................254
-Kar-Taxsu, God of War ......................255
-Nightmare/Night Hag ........................256
-Sphinx .....................................................257
-Succubus ................................................258

Eldritch ..................................................... 260
-Elemental Presence .............................. 260
-Briar Beast............................................. 262
-Brownies ................................................ 263
-Dragons.................................................. 264
-Dryad & Drus ....................................... 280
-Elementals............................................. 282
-Giants ..................................................... 288
-Sprites..................................................... 296
-Sylph ....................................................... 299
-Undine.................................................... 300
-Unicorn .................................................. 301
-Werebeasts ........................................... 302
-Winter Wolf ......................................... 304
-Wycks ..................................................... 305

Demons .................................................... 306
-Demonic Possession ............................. 308
-Demonic Presence ................................ 309

-Abyssal Dragons .................................. 310
-Cambions .............................................. 312
-Demonlings .......................................... 316
-Ifrit – Ember Demons ........................ 318
-Jinn – Miasma Demons ..................... 323
-Kul’ul – Brine Demons ...................... 328
-Shedim – Dust Demons .................... 334

Horrors ..................................................... 338
-Anathema of all Life ............................. 338
-The Shadow of Death .......................... 339

-Animated Dead ................................... 340
-Gallu........................................................ 342
-Ghouls .................................................... 344
-Horrid Masses ...................................... 346
-Lich .......................................................... 348
-Shades .................................................... 351
-Skeletal Horde ..................................... 352
-Wights .................................................... 354
-Wraiths .................................................. 359

Appendix: Keyword Glossary .......... 362

Wrath of God

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #140 on: October 20, 2021, 08:08:01 AM »
Quote
Let me put it this way, a Demon can't be Good, it might do a good deed to further it's plans but it and it's plans are Evil.

The moment a Demon stops being Evil it also stops being a Demon.

The same is true in the reverse for Angels.

If you go against this then that's moral relativism and it's just a grey mush.

There's well written and even fun grey mush moral relativism out there. Doesn't stop being grey mush moral relativism tho.

No Geeky, not necessarily. Moral relativism starts where the same action we treat as good or evil, depending on some subjective perspective things.
However on ontological grounds... that depends on specific cosmological model to follow, I remember from 3.0/3.5 era fallen celestials and ascended fiends, which nevertheless kept much of their form. Let's remember that in classic D&D as much as Good and Evil (and Law and Chaos) are in conflict, they are nothing like in real life cosmologies and religions, because by all accounts all four are equal (and that's big moral relativism compared to real world concepts), and reality is basically estabilished by their mutual relations (not to mention good and evil beings are clearly able to spend time on their respective planes while various shenanigans are happening. So it all depends. Not gonna lie I consider D&D metaphysics hot radioactive mess, so for me it's all fair game.

If you take cosmological model from Catholicism for instance then angels and demons are literally the same type of outsider, there is no movement between those fractions at all, but also not fancy transformations - fallen angels are fallen because they choose to rebel, that did not made them not angels (because you cannot change your basic ontological nature).

When murder stop being Evil act in D&D then sure accussations of moral relativism will be justified. If some ice devil can turn chaotic, and be like transformed in glabrezu by process, that's whatever.


Quote
Why then can a Demon be Good or an Angel Evil? Fallen Angles have a name = Demons, likewise redeemed/good Demons have a name = Angels.

Anything else IS Moral Relativism.

In Catholicism. In fancy quasi-medieval pagan world of Greyhawk?
Like you know devil and demon in Christianity is the same shit, genies in islam are basically on ontological level of Celtic fey, archonts are taken straight out of gnosticism, and don't even start talking about agathions/guardinals :P And if we talk about pagan equivalencies then Angel means messenger (4E went with this trope as they realised the division between angels and archons is kinda pointless in D&D so they turned angels to divine herolds of gods - with alignment fitting deity they serve, while archonts kept being LG celestial independent nation) and Daemon means like any kind of spirit - in Pathfinder you have NE daemons and NG agathions but both are derived from Greek daemons - and if mythological root had been kept we would talk about kakadaemons for NE and agathiodaemons for NG.


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I agree. I thought the novel was handled well, especially because it was directly parodying The Omen, which was a very wrong-headed take on Christian theology IMO. There is still clear right and wrong in Good Omens - it's just that the angels aren't on the side of right. That makes it an explicitly humanist rejection of the theology of The Omen - but its humanism still has an absolute moral compass. In Good Omens, killing Damien as a toddler would be wrong, because he still has a chance at redemption.

Well that depends on what Damien was. Remember in "Omen" they discovered it was spawn of Devil and ... rotweiller, so it's ontological status and chances of redemption become way more murky. Not to mention being not born from human cannot be human in Christian ontology.

So from my perspective as Catholic shanking Damian, the human-looking puppy is well possible to justify (because he is a dog dammit), but same vision that Devil can fuck a dog and make human-looking spawn of this, and he can just casualy murder everyone around given spawn in Final Destination way... that's somehow heretical :P


Quote
Their cosmology was especially worst.  Just disrespectful to real designers.

It's definitely more interesting than Great Wheel which was claearly designed by someone with massive OCD and too much of free time.

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However, as others have rightly mentioned, a Demon that somehow became "redeemed"--would necessitate the creature becoming something entirely different--in essence, returning to their original state of grace and perfection. Demons are, after all, FALLEN ANGELS. They rebelled against God's Will, and were cast down from Heaven, and in the process of that aspect of divine judgment, were forever and eternally transformed.

Definitely not in any mainstream D&D setting, maybe aside dreaded 4e to some degree. (Not to mention in Christianity essence of demons did not change after fall, merely accidents - as essence is immutable).

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Demons are the ultimate expression of evil, wickedness, and rebellion. There isn't anything "redeemable" in them. The whole fascination with making Demons redeemable and this mushy, misunderstood, angst-filled drama queendom is just more bullshit. I think it ultimately forms bad storytelling, bad logic, and bad theology.

D&D was always very very bad theology and utterly shoddy metaphysics. Greyhawk, FR, Eberron, whatever.
The plottwist is - if you don't want for people to treat outsiders as fancy guys with horns and wings, don't make them fancy guys of horns and wings, but spiritual beings, that you cannot talk with (outside hermetic or theurgic highly symbolic rituals), cannot see as having mortal form and mortal kind of inteligence. And you also cannot hack and slash them because they have no bodies.
It was not Woke crowd who pawed way for such shenanigans - it was Gary freaking Gygax. :P

Quote
One of the more interesting things Paizo (as bad as they are) did with PF2E was that all demons are inextricably linked with sin -- either one of the classic 'seven deadly' or an offshoot. They're so tangled up with that sin, in fact, that certain actions taken in opposition to it actually cause them damage.

(I find it hilarious that fucking Paizo seems to have their head bolted on straight in this regard.)

And still they added two reformed succubi including Nocticula former Queen of Succubi that ascended to be CN goddess, and one immortal sorceress who was succubi in all but name basically and creature type. So they also have their own... thing. Funny it's always sexy succubi never glabrezu.

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Very Faustian of them.

7 Deadly sins
7 Levels of hell

Demons of the level are tied to the sin.

Makes absolute sense to me.

Nah remember it's D&D - Hell has circles. Demons are from Abyss and hates hell-folk for being too rigid.
Abyss is chaos of sinful rifts without any hierarchy.


Quote
Ironically enough, the best AP they've put out in nearly 10 year (in my opinion) was one that their most work crowd HATED and still rallies against to this day is one where the party are a bunch of town guards operating to protect the city/world. It was VERY well made and struck a good balance but it was released around the time that police brutality protests were happening across the nations so it became a target as if it were an adventure advocating for Blue Lives Matter or some shit.

Yeah this was ridiculous especially since adventure was clearly planned and designed before whole shitstorm, and ACAB was not nearly as common battlecry of left before Mr. Florida accident.

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The idea that I and I think a few other people on this thread are upset about is making a roleplaying game where you take everything about demons and leave it the same and then just flip their alignment from evil to good, for no discernable reason other than to be edgy and cool.

Well if you want to flip alignment you need to flip behaviour at least. So it's very much not the same.

Quote
Whether they are all good or only some of them are good isn't the point.  Demons aren't good.  They have virtually always been evil incarnate.  That's the point, and making good demons serves no purpose other than to virtue signal how hip they are to current social justice philosophy.  It removes the heroic good vs evil mythic quality of the game and replaces it with moral relativism instead.

No it's not. Alignment is still there informed by actions.
So still good heroes need to defeat some evil. Just because you cannot discern what's evil or good by character type itself, well that's not moral relativism. That's you know common experience of being human and meeting other humans. And as outsiders were by 50 years of D&D shown as humanoid hp bags you can hack and slash, talk with, negotiate, and even breed planetouched spawn with - then after 50 years perspective change.

If you want your demons and angels to not be seen as some dudes in your game, make very sure they are not some dudes.

Quote
I much prefer having Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths and Gehreleths than Devils, Demons, Daemons and Demodands.

I think the 2E characterization of the Fiends was much more interesting and soulful than the 1E versions. Type VI Demon sounds incredibly lame to me, while Balor directly invokes a feeling of dread.

Agree. But then I'm always fantasy language over our own kinda guy.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #141 on: October 20, 2021, 11:16:55 AM »
Quote
Let me put it this way, a Demon can't be Good, it might do a good deed to further it's plans but it and it's plans are Evil.

The moment a Demon stops being Evil it also stops being a Demon.

The same is true in the reverse for Angels.

If you go against this then that's moral relativism and it's just a grey mush.

There's well written and even fun grey mush moral relativism out there. Doesn't stop being grey mush moral relativism tho.

No Geeky, not necessarily. Moral relativism starts where the same action we treat as good or evil, depending on some subjective perspective things.
However on ontological grounds... that depends on specific cosmological model to follow, I remember from 3.0/3.5 era fallen celestials and ascended fiends, which nevertheless kept much of their form. Let's remember that in classic D&D as much as Good and Evil (and Law and Chaos) are in conflict, they are nothing like in real life cosmologies and religions, because by all accounts all four are equal (and that's big moral relativism compared to real world concepts), and reality is basically estabilished by their mutual relations (not to mention good and evil beings are clearly able to spend time on their respective planes while various shenanigans are happening. So it all depends. Not gonna lie I consider D&D metaphysics hot radioactive mess, so for me it's all fair game.

If you take cosmological model from Catholicism for instance then angels and demons are literally the same type of outsider, there is no movement between those fractions at all, but also not fancy transformations - fallen angels are fallen because they choose to rebel, that did not made them not angels (because you cannot change your basic ontological nature).

When murder stop being Evil act in D&D then sure accussations of moral relativism will be justified. If some ice devil can turn chaotic, and be like transformed in glabrezu by process, that's whatever.


Quote
Why then can a Demon be Good or an Angel Evil? Fallen Angles have a name = Demons, likewise redeemed/good Demons have a name = Angels.

Anything else IS Moral Relativism.

In Catholicism. In fancy quasi-medieval pagan world of Greyhawk?
Like you know devil and demon in Christianity is the same shit, genies in islam are basically on ontological level of Celtic fey, archonts are taken straight out of gnosticism, and don't even start talking about agathions/guardinals :P And if we talk about pagan equivalencies then Angel means messenger (4E went with this trope as they realised the division between angels and archons is kinda pointless in D&D so they turned angels to divine herolds of gods - with alignment fitting deity they serve, while archonts kept being LG celestial independent nation) and Daemon means like any kind of spirit - in Pathfinder you have NE daemons and NG agathions but both are derived from Greek daemons - and if mythological root had been kept we would talk about kakadaemons for NE and agathiodaemons for NG.


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I agree. I thought the novel was handled well, especially because it was directly parodying The Omen, which was a very wrong-headed take on Christian theology IMO. There is still clear right and wrong in Good Omens - it's just that the angels aren't on the side of right. That makes it an explicitly humanist rejection of the theology of The Omen - but its humanism still has an absolute moral compass. In Good Omens, killing Damien as a toddler would be wrong, because he still has a chance at redemption.

Well that depends on what Damien was. Remember in "Omen" they discovered it was spawn of Devil and ... rotweiller, so it's ontological status and chances of redemption become way more murky. Not to mention being not born from human cannot be human in Christian ontology.

So from my perspective as Catholic shanking Damian, the human-looking puppy is well possible to justify (because he is a dog dammit), but same vision that Devil can fuck a dog and make human-looking spawn of this, and he can just casualy murder everyone around given spawn in Final Destination way... that's somehow heretical :P


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Their cosmology was especially worst.  Just disrespectful to real designers.

It's definitely more interesting than Great Wheel which was claearly designed by someone with massive OCD and too much of free time.

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However, as others have rightly mentioned, a Demon that somehow became "redeemed"--would necessitate the creature becoming something entirely different--in essence, returning to their original state of grace and perfection. Demons are, after all, FALLEN ANGELS. They rebelled against God's Will, and were cast down from Heaven, and in the process of that aspect of divine judgment, were forever and eternally transformed.

Definitely not in any mainstream D&D setting, maybe aside dreaded 4e to some degree. (Not to mention in Christianity essence of demons did not change after fall, merely accidents - as essence is immutable).

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Demons are the ultimate expression of evil, wickedness, and rebellion. There isn't anything "redeemable" in them. The whole fascination with making Demons redeemable and this mushy, misunderstood, angst-filled drama queendom is just more bullshit. I think it ultimately forms bad storytelling, bad logic, and bad theology.

D&D was always very very bad theology and utterly shoddy metaphysics. Greyhawk, FR, Eberron, whatever.
The plottwist is - if you don't want for people to treat outsiders as fancy guys with horns and wings, don't make them fancy guys of horns and wings, but spiritual beings, that you cannot talk with (outside hermetic or theurgic highly symbolic rituals), cannot see as having mortal form and mortal kind of inteligence. And you also cannot hack and slash them because they have no bodies.
It was not Woke crowd who pawed way for such shenanigans - it was Gary freaking Gygax. :P

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One of the more interesting things Paizo (as bad as they are) did with PF2E was that all demons are inextricably linked with sin -- either one of the classic 'seven deadly' or an offshoot. They're so tangled up with that sin, in fact, that certain actions taken in opposition to it actually cause them damage.

(I find it hilarious that fucking Paizo seems to have their head bolted on straight in this regard.)

And still they added two reformed succubi including Nocticula former Queen of Succubi that ascended to be CN goddess, and one immortal sorceress who was succubi in all but name basically and creature type. So they also have their own... thing. Funny it's always sexy succubi never glabrezu.

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Very Faustian of them.

7 Deadly sins
7 Levels of hell

Demons of the level are tied to the sin.

Makes absolute sense to me.

Nah remember it's D&D - Hell has circles. Demons are from Abyss and hates hell-folk for being too rigid.
Abyss is chaos of sinful rifts without any hierarchy.


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Ironically enough, the best AP they've put out in nearly 10 year (in my opinion) was one that their most work crowd HATED and still rallies against to this day is one where the party are a bunch of town guards operating to protect the city/world. It was VERY well made and struck a good balance but it was released around the time that police brutality protests were happening across the nations so it became a target as if it were an adventure advocating for Blue Lives Matter or some shit.

Yeah this was ridiculous especially since adventure was clearly planned and designed before whole shitstorm, and ACAB was not nearly as common battlecry of left before Mr. Florida accident.

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The idea that I and I think a few other people on this thread are upset about is making a roleplaying game where you take everything about demons and leave it the same and then just flip their alignment from evil to good, for no discernable reason other than to be edgy and cool.

Well if you want to flip alignment you need to flip behaviour at least. So it's very much not the same.

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Whether they are all good or only some of them are good isn't the point.  Demons aren't good.  They have virtually always been evil incarnate.  That's the point, and making good demons serves no purpose other than to virtue signal how hip they are to current social justice philosophy.  It removes the heroic good vs evil mythic quality of the game and replaces it with moral relativism instead.

No it's not. Alignment is still there informed by actions.
So still good heroes need to defeat some evil. Just because you cannot discern what's evil or good by character type itself, well that's not moral relativism. That's you know common experience of being human and meeting other humans. And as outsiders were by 50 years of D&D shown as humanoid hp bags you can hack and slash, talk with, negotiate, and even breed planetouched spawn with - then after 50 years perspective change.

If you want your demons and angels to not be seen as some dudes in your game, make very sure they are not some dudes.

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I much prefer having Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Yugoloths and Gehreleths than Devils, Demons, Daemons and Demodands.

I think the 2E characterization of the Fiends was much more interesting and soulful than the 1E versions. Type VI Demon sounds incredibly lame to me, while Balor directly invokes a feeling of dread.

Agree. But then I'm always fantasy language over our own kinda guy.

That's all well and good IF you play it RAW. I don't and never did, In my table/games there's only 2 alignments Good vs Evil. I took Order & Chaos and made it into a characteristic of some Evil creatures.

For example: A Demon that's tied by it's word would be Evil always, but would have the Order trait.

Another example: Treating all Fae monsters (Elves, Goblins, etc.) as Evil like in the original tales, and giving them the Order trait because they had to adhere to their word.

Vampires ARE Evil and get the Order trait because I give them the compulsion to count/order/pick up  stuff like in some legends.

When I get to PC races then it becomes possible for some mortals to be Good & have the Chaotic trait. But chaos isn't the same as evil like in earlier D&D, it's just the willingness to bend/break the rules to further your goals. It depends on what rules you bend/break and how far you go which can sometimes give you bad boy points  (spiritual taint).
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Greywolf76

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #142 on: October 21, 2021, 08:38:13 AM »
Meh. No.
At my (5e) table, Demons are Evil, with a capital E. Every. Time.  They will murder, mutilate, fold, spindle, devour and assault you.  They are made of Evil and that's what they do.
Devils too. Although they're more likely to try to sell you a 12yo Camero at 23%APR with a balloon payment at the end.

Quick Quiz!
If you start with an Evil soul, torment it for centuries, allow it an atmosphere where backstabbing, cruelty and Intimidation are the norms for promotion for centuries more, you get a:
1: Demon or Devil. 100% Evil, Kill it on sight. Do we need +2 or Better weapons to hit? Silver or Cold Iron?
2. Same, but we call them Tanarri or Baatzu.
3. Hold on. I got 6 more pages to optimize my Demonkiller Prestige class to fight this.
4. A WotC game designer.
5. Tall dark cutie with horns and rippling abs! A pointed tail that might be prehensile to do...things. Wanna walk up and say Hi? You can roll Persuasion.

Number 2 for me.

Wrath of God

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #143 on: Today at 06:45:06 AM »
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That's all well and good IF you play it RAW. I don't and never did, In my table/games there's only 2 alignments Good vs Evil. I took Order & Chaos and made it into a characteristic of some Evil creatures.

OK, Geeky, but we're not discussing your homebrew but official D&D, so whatever rules you implied in your non-Raw game are irrelevant, and however you define angels, fey and demons in it, are irrelevant, and therefore so are accussation D&D suddenly changed into moral relativism due to WOKE, when in fact it's Raw morality/alignment system was always weird bullshit and there were always weird exceptions and unique outsiders along it many itterations, with Planeescape being most famous example.


Shasarak

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #144 on: Today at 03:20:24 PM »
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One of the more interesting things Paizo (as bad as they are) did with PF2E was that all demons are inextricably linked with sin -- either one of the classic 'seven deadly' or an offshoot. They're so tangled up with that sin, in fact, that certain actions taken in opposition to it actually cause them damage.

(I find it hilarious that fucking Paizo seems to have their head bolted on straight in this regard.)

And still they added two reformed succubi including Nocticula former Queen of Succubi that ascended to be CN goddess, and one immortal sorceress who was succubi in all but name basically and creature type. So they also have their own... thing. Funny it's always sexy succubi never glabrezu.

Know your audience.

No one wants to see more pictures of a Glabrezu when there is a possibility of pictures of a Succubi.
There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

DM_Curt

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #145 on: Today at 05:46:01 PM »
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One of the more interesting things Paizo (as bad as they are) did with PF2E was that all demons are inextricably linked with sin -- either one of the classic 'seven deadly' or an offshoot. They're so tangled up with that sin, in fact, that certain actions taken in opposition to it actually cause them damage.

(I find it hilarious that fucking Paizo seems to have their head bolted on straight in this regard.)

And still they added two reformed succubi including Nocticula former Queen of Succubi that ascended to be CN goddess, and one immortal sorceress who was succubi in all but name basically and creature type. So they also have their own... thing. Funny it's always sexy succubi never glabrezu.

Know your audience.

No one wants to see more pictures of a Glabrezu when there is a possibility of pictures of a Succubi.
No one? It's the Internet. I'm sure that's someone's fetish.
Maybe ask around on RPGnet?

Shasarak

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Re: Good demons and the end of the satanic panic (5.5e)
« Reply #146 on: Today at 06:04:54 PM »
Quote
One of the more interesting things Paizo (as bad as they are) did with PF2E was that all demons are inextricably linked with sin -- either one of the classic 'seven deadly' or an offshoot. They're so tangled up with that sin, in fact, that certain actions taken in opposition to it actually cause them damage.

(I find it hilarious that fucking Paizo seems to have their head bolted on straight in this regard.)

And still they added two reformed succubi including Nocticula former Queen of Succubi that ascended to be CN goddess, and one immortal sorceress who was succubi in all but name basically and creature type. So they also have their own... thing. Funny it's always sexy succubi never glabrezu.

Know your audience.

No one wants to see more pictures of a Glabrezu when there is a possibility of pictures of a Succubi.
No one? It's the Internet. I'm sure that's someone's fetish.
Maybe ask around on RPGnet?

Strangely not even RPGnet.
There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus