Gold for xp isn't a talisman.  It's done to boost a style of play

Players wanting to play anti-money characters, people concerned about economic realism, and saying "but there was a session without treasure that was fun - no xp?" Are all indications that this isn't really a pair of jeans that fits this particular table.  There's nothing wrong with that.  But why force it? 

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 06:21:12 PM
Another issue:

It's possible to play a session that has all the hall marks of a great session -- death defying, character moments, supreme excitement, clever play, etc., but basically get nothing from experience points because you didn't get any gold out.

This one of the many reasons I don't give XP for gold, but give it for achievements and player/character contributions (good RP, good ideas, good laughs, planning, etc.) in game instead. That way you always get XP for meaningful game play, even if no combat takes place and no treasure is found.

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 02, 2020, 07:11:45 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 06:21:12 PM
Another issue:

It's possible to play a session that has all the hall marks of a great session -- death defying, character moments, supreme excitement, clever play, etc., but basically get nothing from experience points because you didn't get any gold out.

This one of the many reasons I don't give XP for gold, but give it for achievements and player/character contributions (good RP, good ideas, good laughs, planning, etc.) in game instead. That way you always get XP for meaningful game play, even if no combat takes place and no treasure is found.

Do you not do XP for gold based games? Or big exploration style dungeons?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 02, 2020, 07:12:57 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on October 02, 2020, 07:11:45 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 06:21:12 PM
Another issue:

It's possible to play a session that has all the hall marks of a great session -- death defying, character moments, supreme excitement, clever play, etc., but basically get nothing from experience points because you didn't get any gold out.

This one of the many reasons I don't give XP for gold, but give it for achievements and player/character contributions (good RP, good ideas, good laughs, planning, etc.) in game instead. That way you always get XP for meaningful game play, even if no combat takes place and no treasure is found.

Do you not do XP for gold based games? Or big exploration style dungeons?

XP for gold was a thing in the first group I played with when I started out in the hobby, but I never liked it as a concept and the first adventure I ever played the DM had me find an entire dragon' hoard at the end, left unattended for no apparent reason (there were only goblins in the cave), which gave me enough XP to take my character from level 1 to level 14.

I didn't know about having to train or spend gold to get XP back then, and not everyone used those rules. Plus the adventure was mostly an excuse to get my character to level 14 quickly so I could join my DM's regular group, where everyone was like level 15+. But it put me off XP for gold completely. It just didn't feel earned and the concept seemed silly and immersion breaking to me, so I never used XP for gold when I finally got my own books and became DM (except maybe the first few sessions, till I finally found my balls and said "NO XP for gold in my campaigns! This is stupid!").

I focused on XP for kills and class-related stuff instead (class XP was a thing in 2e, which was what I first ran), then eventually added XP for achievements (mission or personal objectives, overcoming challenges, etc.), good RP, planning, etc. when I found the idea in certain supplements and other games. Play style was a combination of dungeon crawls, "save the village", rescue missions or whatever came our way.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 02, 2020, 07:12:57 PMDo you not do XP for gold based games? Or big exploration style dungeons?

I wouldn't say that gold = XP is a concept I ditched quite so fast as alignment (that was about 15 minutes in, back in 1978), but it sure was right on the heels.  I give XP for good RP.  I give it for good combat decisions and tactics.  I give it for materially contributing to the success of the mission.  I give it for players turning in extra-credit projects.

These are all within the players' ability to do/achieve, if they can.  Loot, by contrast, is solely what I decide as a GM.  The players have no decision and no influence as to whether that cask of coin has a hundred silver sinvers or a thousand gold sovereigns.  Giving XP for a gold amount has zero relation to the skill of their play: that $ is simply what I feel like handing out.  So honestly, I don't think that "gold"-based games make any more sense than "purple"-based games, and I might as readily just award XP based on the square inches of purple clothing each player wears to the session.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on October 02, 2020, 12:19:02 AM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 04:26:25 PM
1) In a game like this, how do you handle having characters who don't want to accept gold or treasure (because they're a cleric or took a vow of poverty or something)?

Members of the church are poor, the church is not. They hold onto wealth only long enough to pass it to the church - as it passes through their hands it leaves behind a greasy residue of XP.

Heh - made me think of Father Ted - "the money was only resting in my account" (might be a Brits only reference, not sure it crossed the pond)

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on October 02, 2020, 12:19:02 AM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 01, 2020, 04:26:25 PM

Quote2) The amount of gold you throw down is immersion breaking -- the economy of the area doesn't disintegrate?

Then change it.

http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/05/money-results.html

ISTR a mention in 1e AD&D about goods pricings being boom town / goldrush prices. A town near a dungeon or other adventuring site gets expensive.

More broadly, I am regularly surprised at how often people seem to think they have to play the rules and only the rules as written, logic be damned.

1) Characters get XP from acquiring gold. Not keeping it. It's party treasure, and the gold and XP are split as evenly as possible. If a character doesn't want their share of gold, they still keep their share of XP. Simple.

2) Use the economics of the fantastic Adventurer, Conqueror, King system (ACKS), which actually accounts for how obscenely wealthy characters spend gold and has an economy that can handle the ludicrous piles of GP you can dump into it.

Actually, doing as you're doing is what lead to me eventually just exclusively running ACKS. It just works so much better than 5e for what I want out of a game.

In regards to doing lots of cool stuff but not leveling up: GP for XP is inherently goal-directed. It assumes that you risk danger for gold (by dungeoncrawling) and that superior play is derived from reducing your risk to acquire said gold (by being sneaky and clever, for instance).

You may find that these assumptions don't make for the kind of game you and your group enjoys; this is perfectly fine. It's not a style that sits perfectly for everyone (my group eventually got sick of having tons of radical sessions like you're describing pass without getting any XP, for example). If you find this to be the case, I'd again point you to ACKS, which does a wonderful job of giving more powerful characters (ie: those who are too good to dungeoncrawl anymore, the pantywaists) alternative ways of generating revenue that are fantastically in-character for the classes.

For example, wizards can conduct magical research, build wizard's towers, even stock their OWN dungeons to attract exotic monsters (to harvest for spell components!). They get the gold and XP they need to continue advancing in power WHILE deepening and redefining the setting. Highly, highly recommended.

Quote from: Azraele on October 03, 2020, 08:00:26 PM
1) Characters get XP from acquiring gold. Not keeping it. It's party treasure, and the gold and XP are split as evenly as possible. If a character doesn't want their share of gold, they still keep their share of XP. Simple.

2) Use the economics of the fantastic Adventurer, Conqueror, King system (ACKS), which actually accounts for how obscenely wealthy characters spend gold and has an economy that can handle the ludicrous piles of GP you can dump into it.

Actually, doing as you're doing is what lead to me eventually just exclusively running ACKS. It just works so much better than 5e for what I want out of a game.

In regards to doing lots of cool stuff but not leveling up: GP for XP is inherently goal-directed. It assumes that you risk danger for gold (by dungeoncrawling) and that superior play is derived from reducing your risk to acquire said gold (by being sneaky and clever, for instance).

You may find that these assumptions don't make for the kind of game you and your group enjoys; this is perfectly fine. It's not a style that sits perfectly for everyone (my group eventually got sick of having tons of radical sessions like you're describing pass without getting any XP, for example). If you find this to be the case, I'd again point you to ACKS, which does a wonderful job of giving more powerful characters (ie: those who are too good to dungeoncrawl anymore, the pantywaists) alternative ways of generating revenue that are fantastically in-character for the classes.

For example, wizards can conduct magical research, build wizard's towers, even stock their OWN dungeons to attract exotic monsters (to harvest for spell components!). They get the gold and XP they need to continue advancing in power WHILE deepening and redefining the setting. Highly, highly recommended.

Ohhh, that does sound amazing. What does the wizard do to get gold/xp in this case? Is it from spending money on building his own dungeon or research?

Quote from: Marchand on October 03, 2020, 03:18:22 AM
Heh - made me think of Father Ted - "the money was only resting in my account" (might be a Brits only reference, not sure it crossed the pond)

"FECK!"

QuoteMore broadly, I am regularly surprised at how often people seem to think they have to play the rules and only the rules as written, logic be damned.

Running AD&D1e cures you of this. The rules are so long and scattered across the books and self-contradictory that it's not actually possible to play RAW. Over the years I've many people tell me they ran it RAW. The simple response is: "Alright, explain to me the surprise and initiative rules." Here's a compilation of the rules - which is an incomplete summary. It's 20 pages. Footnoted.

Nobody plays AD&D1e RAW, it's too much of a fucking mess. But it's a glorious mess, and its messiness teaches you as a DM to make your own way in the world. You have to improvise.

Yeah that's a big difference in mindset with old players compared to new school ones. Especially with how the modern approach for a lot of table problems is to use rules to deal with them (stuff like X-cards, or telling a problem player no).

QuoteOhhh, that does sound amazing. What does the wizard do to get gold/xp in this case? Is it from spending money on building his own dungeon or research?

They get XP for building their wizard tower and for magical research (including making magic items and casting the most powerful magic, which is ritualized and very expensive). Technically they don't get XP for building dungeons, but they *do* get XP for harvesting the monsters inside for magical components. They can also get XP from weird stuff like arbitrage trading and levying taxes on serfs that farm the land they protect with their strongholds.

So if you hang up your pointy hat in regards to dungeon-diving around tenth level or so, there's still a long retirement into wizard-king-ness awaiting you, with consistent slow power growth. This also doubles as a nice way to keep magic items significant, as they become something of an arms race between rival wizards and help to drive late-game play (at least that's how things shook out in my last fantasy campaign).

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on October 03, 2020, 09:53:17 PM
Yeah that's a big difference in mindset with old players compared to new school ones. Especially with how the modern approach for a lot of table problems is to use rules to deal with them (stuff like X-cards, or telling a problem player no).

Matt Finch's Quick Primer for Old School Gaming.

You can change correct that mindset.