This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: Gold for XP exceptions  (Read 2511 times)

mAcular Chaotic

  • All Evils of this World
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2263
Gold for XP exceptions
« on: August 03, 2021, 11:50:24 PM »
When playing a gold for XP game, do you ONLY give gold for xp acquired (aside from minimal monster killing xp)?

What about situations where the players do something RP worthy but it actually means they don't get gold? Like turning it down to help an obviously in-need person? Or doing something purely for a selfless reason that's actually difficult but with no gold involved?

Do they just miss out because they were generous?
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.

Pat
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 5252
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Gold for XP exceptions
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2021, 04:19:51 AM »
You're crossing streams. Why would you give someone XP for acting selflessly? Gold for XP is intended to incentivize certain behaviors, specifically amoral antiheroic behavior. If you want to give out XP for being a Big Damn Hero, you're incentivizing a different and often conflicting set of behaviors. Generally, you should pick the one that works best in your game. If it's go for gold, then yes, they'll miss out. They can certainly act in heroic ways, but the world won't necessarily reward them for it.

If you want to reward more heroic actions, then plot or milestone-based rewards might be a better approach. The PCs get XP for saving the prince from the dragon, instead of for the dragon's hoard. Roleplaying rewards or the like can be treated as training multipliers, like in the 1e DMG.


Naburimannu

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • N
  • Posts: 301
Re: Gold for XP exceptions
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2021, 05:13:14 AM »
Or you can give in-world rewards for selfless actions. They ought to be getting a good reputation with serious impact.

But I personally don't agree with Pat, both in theory and in practice. In addition for xp-for-treasure and, to a small degree, for monster slaying, I give xp for
* negotiating / befriending / subverting monsters & NPCs
* discovering secrets (a little bit for e.g. secret doors, quite a bit more for uncovering lost history)
* exploration (finding routes to new levels / new ingresses & egresses)
* rescuing prisoners


Steven Mitchell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 3770
Re: Gold for XP exceptions
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2021, 06:49:54 AM »
Are you giving XP for gold to be hard case about it?  Or are you doing it as just a convenient way to keep score?  If the latter, assign a "this thing would have been this much score" amount to it, just attached with no gold.  For example, the penniless villagers absolutely would have been happy to give the party a 100 gold to rescue the mayor, if they had it.  Note that even when doing this, it's not automatic.  Maybe the villagers don't like the mayor that much and would only grudgingly offer 10 coppers for his return!

Either way, there are still rewards for altruistic behavior if you are having the world react properly to the party--they just aren't (always) XP.  It's similar to whether you should give XP for magic items or not.  Hard case, no.  You either sell it and get XP for that gold or you keep it and the reward is having the item.  No double dipping. 

There are nuances.  This is one of those cases where it is far better to decide what you want the behavior to be and then extrapolate from there how the rewards will work.  For example, I'm running a game right now where most of the XP comes from gold, but it isn't a 1:1 exchange--because I wanted the party to be able to advance reasonably fast while staying poor.  You can do that with classic XP for gold and making the expenses drain it.  This means you have to account for the gold input and expenses.  Or you can leave some of the ratio up to the GM, which is the route I'm going.  Pulling out a big treasure is worth a major chunk of XP.  I'm just applying some GM fiat to the ratio and adjudicating based on how impressive the haul is. Which means I don't need to do as much accounting when placing the treasure and can instead make it a world simulation thing.  All where you'd rather put the effort, pick your poison.   This is to incentivize pulling out impressive treasures more than valuable treasures.  That rare book or tapestry might be worth 100 gp, but it is more impressive than pulling out several mule loads of copper coins.

Lunamancer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1293
Re: Gold for XP exceptions
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2021, 07:04:14 AM »
The birds eye view of the 1E xp system consists of three parts. Challenge, achieving goals, and role play. Role play doesn't come with any XP rewards, but it's a factor in using XP to actually advance a level as it affects time and cost of training. Challenge XP rewarsd in their most explicit form is XP for killing monsters. But the level of challenge also adjusts XP gained for treasure. And there is explicit mention of XP awards for overcoming other challenges, not just killing monsters, it's just that those require a lot more judgement and cannot be listed out the way XP for monsters is.

That last area, XP for achieving goals, is the subject here. It's not just XP for gold. Like XP for monsters, it's simply that it's the most objective, quantifiable, and easily included in game terms. There is an explicit example of this I can point to in the game. XP for magic items. You can still sell them at the end of the adventure and gain XP for gold as usual. But you can also choose not to sell them and still get XP for attaining the item. The amount of XP is a lot lower--about 10-20% of what you would have gotten by just selling it, the idea being that you will benefit from the use of the item.

So that's the guidance I go off of. Rescuing the princess is certainly a goal. Once that task is done, you could conceivably try to ransom her. In that case, you would get XP for any gold you were able to get. Or you could completely selflessly return her. And that would generate a certain amount of good will. That good will might be useful to the PCs, and so it would be similar to keeping a magic item, and would be worth some amount of XP, but only a fraction of what the GP value of the ransom would have been.

It may be worth pointing out the good will is a tangible thing in 1E. Understandably, there is a bonus to Loyalty when liege and underlings have matching alignments. But it's also the case that LG liege and henchmen have much better loyalty ratings than CE liege and henchmen, even when all other things are equal. This is the tradeoff in 1E's alignment system. Evil characters have more latitude in their actions than good characters, but good characters tend to be more trusted precisely because they don't feel free to do some of the things evil characters feel free to do.

What's it all worth? Depends a lot on how important this stuff is in your campaign, which is why the game could not have possibly listed the XP reward. But it's clear to me the intent of the system is to reward attaining goals, not just gold and overcoming challenges, not just monsters.
That's my two cents anyway. Carry on, crawler.

Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito.

Vidgrip

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • V
  • Posts: 134
Re: Gold for XP exceptions
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2021, 08:49:24 AM »
When I'm running a game that gives xp for acquiring gold, no, I will not give xp for altruistic behavior. This is a major factor is helping players understand the tone of the setting. I only give xp for acquiring gold in grim-dark settings. If I were playing in a noble-bright setting, I would probably reward altruism with xp, but not the acquisition of gold.

There is a different mechanism for relating xp to gold that does not hinge on the acquisition, but rather on the spending. This can be used in both extremes. It involves characters spending the gold (so it exits the game economy) with 1 xp awarded for each gold piece spent. In my sword & sorcery settings, characters dissipate their wealth on carousing and extravagant drunken parties. This boosts their reputation and sets up the next adventure as they are once again broke and in need of coin. The same sort of mechanism can also work in a noble-bright setting. Characters don't get xp for acquiring gold, but do for giving it to charitable institutions or other projects that benefit others (rebuild the town destroyed by the witchlings). Additional benefits of this system are that the accounting of gold for xp is both controlled by the players and accounted by the players. They get choices and it's less work for me.

Basically, I just use xp reward systems to signal the intended tone of the setting. I prefer to use settings that lean heavily in one direction or another, rather than a flavorless middle-ground.
Playing: John Carter of Mars, Hyperborea
Running: Swords & Wizardry Complete

mAcular Chaotic

  • All Evils of this World
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2263
Re: Gold for XP exceptions
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2021, 09:55:48 AM »
You're crossing streams. Why would you give someone XP for acting selflessly? Gold for XP is intended to incentivize certain behaviors, specifically amoral antiheroic behavior. If you want to give out XP for being a Big Damn Hero, you're incentivizing a different and often conflicting set of behaviors. Generally, you should pick the one that works best in your game. If it's go for gold, then yes, they'll miss out. They can certainly act in heroic ways, but the world won't necessarily reward them for it.

If you want to reward more heroic actions, then plot or milestone-based rewards might be a better approach. The PCs get XP for saving the prince from the dragon, instead of for the dragon's hoard. Roleplaying rewards or the like can be treated as training multipliers, like in the 1e DMG.

I've just seen it pointed out as a flaw in gold for XP since, obviously, any good roleplaying game should care about the players playing their characters in a good way. So if a character is Lawful Good and doing Lawful Good things, isn't that punishing? Or put another way, is there no room for a LG character in such a game?

So I was wondering if people actually stick to this in practice, or if they just bite the bullet and play it as is, or if there's another way of looking at it from their perspective that justifies this kind of thing.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.

FingerRod

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • F
  • Posts: 600
Re: Gold for XP exceptions
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2021, 11:19:10 AM »
You're crossing streams. Why would you give someone XP for acting selflessly? Gold for XP is intended to incentivize certain behaviors, specifically amoral antiheroic behavior. If you want to give out XP for being a Big Damn Hero, you're incentivizing a different and often conflicting set of behaviors. Generally, you should pick the one that works best in your game. If it's go for gold, then yes, they'll miss out. They can certainly act in heroic ways, but the world won't necessarily reward them for it.

If you want to reward more heroic actions, then plot or milestone-based rewards might be a better approach. The PCs get XP for saving the prince from the dragon, instead of for the dragon's hoard. Roleplaying rewards or the like can be treated as training multipliers, like in the 1e DMG.

I've just seen it pointed out as a flaw in gold for XP since, obviously, any good roleplaying game should care about the players playing their characters in a good way. So if a character is Lawful Good and doing Lawful Good things, isn't that punishing? Or put another way, is there no room for a LG character in such a game?

So I was wondering if people actually stick to this in practice, or if they just bite the bullet and play it as is, or if there's another way of looking at it from their perspective that justifies this kind of thing.

In my OD&D game, yes, I stick with gold for experience. I also award it for defeating monsters. I do not award for it for roleplaying one’s chosen alignment. It has worked out great.

Reward and punishment are not dependent states. In other words, I do not believe the absence of reward to be a punishment.

Pat
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 5252
  • Rats do 0 damage
Re: Gold for XP exceptions
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2021, 11:23:16 AM »
You're crossing streams. Why would you give someone XP for acting selflessly? Gold for XP is intended to incentivize certain behaviors, specifically amoral antiheroic behavior. If you want to give out XP for being a Big Damn Hero, you're incentivizing a different and often conflicting set of behaviors. Generally, you should pick the one that works best in your game. If it's go for gold, then yes, they'll miss out. They can certainly act in heroic ways, but the world won't necessarily reward them for it.

If you want to reward more heroic actions, then plot or milestone-based rewards might be a better approach. The PCs get XP for saving the prince from the dragon, instead of for the dragon's hoard. Roleplaying rewards or the like can be treated as training multipliers, like in the 1e DMG.

I've just seen it pointed out as a flaw in gold for XP since, obviously, any good roleplaying game should care about the players playing their characters in a good way. So if a character is Lawful Good and doing Lawful Good things, isn't that punishing? Or put another way, is there no room for a LG character in such a game?

So I was wondering if people actually stick to this in practice, or if they just bite the bullet and play it as is, or if there's another way of looking at it from their perspective that justifies this kind of thing.
There's nothing stopping a lawful good character from doing lawful good things, when using a gold for XP system. There's just no mechanical incentive to encourage that kind of behavior. It's a philosophical aside, but I'd argue that makes the good actions count for more, because they're done without the expectation of a reward.

The XP system doesn't restrict what actions are possible. In fact, most roleplaying will take place because of things external to the XP system. Players will play their characters, negotiate, kick open doors, and on because they're fun and interesting ways to engage with the imagined world. What the XP system really does is require the players to seek certain ends, if they want to get anywhere. In an XP for gold system, your paladin can save all the penniless orphans they want, but if you want to advance beyond first level, at some point you need to acquire some filthy lucre. So even if they do the occasional pro bono quest, it encourages players to make the main thrust of the game about acquiring treasure.

That's why I think gold for XP and plot/quest/milestone system based systems are inherently opposed. Gold for XP encourages players to take a very mercantile, what's-in-it-for-me view of the world. It's not the sole driving force, but by necessity it becomes one of the central features of the campaign. Whereas a system based on story rewards encourages the players to accomplish those goals, which are often the heroic and honorable quests of high fantasy. Again, this doesn't restrict their actions. A player can always go against the incentive structure, and satisfy their character's greed at the expense of some more noble goal. But they won't gain XP, which pushes the players to focus on those dramatic milestones most of the time, instead of simple material satisfaction.

The reason the XP rewards system is so important is because it's a constant, recurrent, push toward certain behaviors. It's carrot rather than stick, but especially in games with geometric progression, it's a very strong (tasty?) carrot. From a design standpoint, you don't need carrots for the things the players are going to anyway. Roleplaying is usually its own reward, for instance. You might offer XP to encourage shy or new players, but it's not something that's needed on an on-going basis, because it's literally the reason why most of the players are there sitting at the table. Conversely, it is useful if you want to run a campaign with a certain tone or theme. Gold for XP is good for encouraging pragmatic, rational, shades of gray antiheroes, like those in sword & sorcery, heist, or even noir stories. Milestones can be good for high fantasy, princesses and ponies, and epic quests and big bads.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2021, 11:34:23 AM by Pat »

hedgehobbit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1287
Re: Gold for XP exceptions
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2021, 11:47:51 AM »
I've just seen it pointed out as a flaw in gold for XP since, obviously, any good roleplaying game should care about the players playing their characters in a good way. So if a character is Lawful Good and doing Lawful Good things, isn't that punishing? Or put another way, is there no room for a LG character in such a game?

If you read a bunch of early writings on the game, a Lawful Good character would be gaining all sorts of advantages for being Lawful Good: NPCs are more likely to trust them, villagers might aid them with free food or lodging, etc. This was an important factor in why many early version would punish a player for changing alignment. It was meant to keep PCs from claiming to be Lawful Good to get the bennies while acting evil when no one was looking.

IOW, rather than giving players XP bonuses for their characters acting in a good faction, PCs that regularly act in a good fashion should be treated better by NPCs than PCs that don't.


As for Quest rewards, personally, I have no problem with XP for Quest completion as long as it's written in advance as part of the adventure and the XP rewards is in-line with what a similar mission would gain if the rewards were pure gold.  For example, "I'll pay you 500 gold to go kill these orcs" and "Would you please kill these orcs for us poor villagers?" would both net 500 XP.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2021, 11:53:48 AM by hedgehobbit »

David Johansen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • D
  • Posts: 6222
Re: Gold for XP exceptions
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2021, 01:55:39 PM »
I only give experience for gold spent on training.  This is not without precedence as the AD&D 1e DMG has 1000 - 4000 x level gp required as training expenses to level up.  I just unify the mechanics.  I also lean towards have training provided by patrons over large cash hand outs as it gives the PCs a reason to respect their patrons.
Fantasy Adventure Comic, games, and more http://www.uncouthsavage.com

Libramarian

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • L
  • Posts: 81
Re: Gold for XP exceptions
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2021, 01:53:48 PM »
I'd award XP for a reward that was turned down, since that's essentially the same as accepting the reward and giving it back, and I don't take XP away for giving away gold.

I don't award XP for good deeds done with no possibility of reward though. The player should undertake such a quest with the same selfless mindset as their character.

To me the purpose of XP for GP is to enhance immersion, not incentivize behavior per se. It's an abstraction of all the diegetic benefits to getting rich that aren't explored by the game. It makes gold matter for the player as it does for the character, without bogging the game down in absurd and tedious shopping trips.

mAcular Chaotic

  • All Evils of this World
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2263
Re: Gold for XP exceptions
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2021, 02:00:39 PM »
I'd award XP for a reward that was turned down, since that's essentially the same as accepting the reward and giving it back, and I don't take XP away for giving away gold.

I don't award XP for good deeds done with no possibility of reward though. The player should undertake such a quest with the same selfless mindset as their character.

To me the purpose of XP for GP is to enhance immersion, not incentivize behavior per se. It's an abstraction of all the diegetic benefits to getting rich that aren't explored by the game. It makes gold matter for the player as it does for the character, without bogging the game down in absurd and tedious shopping trips.

It's more reward for the player that doesn't line up in the sense that... okay, it makes sense for someone to selflessly turn down a reward -- but why is someone being selfish more immersive and equal to them advancing in power faster?
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.

Libramarian

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • L
  • Posts: 81
Re: Gold for XP exceptions
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2021, 06:27:49 PM »
It's more reward for the player that doesn't line up in the sense that... okay, it makes sense for someone to selflessly turn down a reward -- but why is someone being selfish more immersive and equal to them advancing in power faster?
The character unlocks the chest and throws open the lid, revealing the gleam of gold. The character whoops and cheers, thrilled with their newfound riches. In an XP for GP game, the player also whoops and cheers, since their character grows in power. Their emotional states are in sync, resulting in a more immersive experience.

Without this rule, the player stifles a yawn, since there's nothing to buy in this game. They petition the DM for magic item shops and crafting rules.

mAcular Chaotic

  • All Evils of this World
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2263
Re: Gold for XP exceptions
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2021, 09:11:15 PM »
That part makes sense -- but if it's for immersion wouldn't other things that make the character celebrate also get XP, not just gold? So it does seem to come down to incentive.
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.