Quote from: Squidi on August 31, 2021, 11:18:51 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 31, 2021, 07:06:23 AM
It's utter nonsense... People's fee fees hurt by orcs. Those people are clearly not right in the head, or are looking for a bogus cause they can 'champion'. It's a completely made up narrative.

It's a form of emotional manipulation designed to give them a moral dominance over the debate. You can't argue against them, because that would be arguing against minorities or something.

For me, the real problem is where they invent problems where none exist, not to give them a sense of superiority, but as a way to insert themselves into discussions and properties that otherwise would not give them the time of day. "The Problem With Apu" isn't about Apu, much less the Simpsons. It's about the guy who made the documentary (who even puts his face on the poster). He uses his grievance to piggyback on the popularity and success of the Simpsons, because otherwise, nobody would notice him or his documentaries - what terrifies him at night is obscurity.

There is not a problem with orcs. There is a problem with the people who say there is a problem with orcs. Even they don't believe their own malarky. Yes, it makes them look crazy. Yes, everybody thinks they are full of crap. But it's too late. At the point you are noticing that Daniel Kwon exists, he's already accomplished his goal.

Exactly man... It's this emotive and disingenuous rhetoric thrown about in order to gain sympathy for a 'cause'. Don't have a proper cause to defend? Lets make one up, like orcs, and then make a disingenuous connection to muh' racism.

Indeed, the problem is not with the imaginary orcs but with the oxygen thieves who make up these imaginary 'demons'. And when you ask for the facts to back any of it up you get nothing tangible. A perfect example of this was when Box Car pointed to a study of how bad men were (in Asia). But what has that study got to do with violence in RPGs, Western men, and women being mistreated? NOTHING!!!

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 31, 2021, 01:12:41 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 31, 2021, 01:01:48 PM

Worth a watch in case you missed it, on the Legion of Myth's YT channel they obliterated their arguments against Oriental Adventures. They also offered to debate the little man bun, but he ran to the hills and blocked all the 'nasty men'. LOL

I don't have any respect or time for someone who spouts out claims, but refuses to hear any counter points to their argument.

oh, didn't know that. I'll look em up.

It's a great channel. The main dude, I can't remember his name at the moment, is as sharp as a blade and takes no fucking prisoners. And his wife is Japanese, so he knows a lot about the culture.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 31, 2021, 01:14:09 PMExactly man... It's this emotive and disingenuous rhetoric thrown about in order to gain sympathy for a 'cause'. Don't have a proper cause to defend? Lets make one up, like orcs, and then make a disingenuous connection to muh' racism.

These arguments only work on the fence sitters. The "agnostics", if you will. People who haven't committed one way or the other can still be swayed - if not completely to one side, at least to the point where they rush to the defense of the ones that appear to be victims.

They find people who look for... not conformity, but more like harmony. They create discord precisely because it is uncomfortable for this segment of people, but they say, "look, it's not being a jerk. I'm the victim of the real jerks". And the fence sitters look at the cause and go, I guess that kind of does look like a problem. Rape is a real problem and maybe we shouldn't support works that endorse or trivialize it (ignoring the fact that Goblin Slayer is anything but pro-rape - it is literally a fate worse than death in the novels)

If you look at the things that really get under the skin of the purple forum crowd, it's stuff like Goblin Slayer and Rising of the Shield Hero - not harder stuff like Berserk or Interspecies Reviewers. The reason is because Goblin Slayer is a threat to them is precisely because it can speak directly to the fence sitting crowd. It is kind of fence sitting itself (edgy, but not too edgy, and noteworthy beyond its edginess). They have to play up the sins of Goblin Slayer to scare off normies from trying it, because if they try it and like it, the entire narrative collapses.

Similarly, The Problem With Apu was not created for diehard Simpsons fans, and Daniel Kwan was not speaking to D&D grognards. NetFlix's adaptation of Cowboy Bebop is not made for people who have watched Cowboy Bebop. The new Saint's Row is not being made for fans of the previous games. Anita Sarkesian's Tropes Against Women was not made for gamers.

All these things are squarely targeted towards the cultural agnostics - the fence sitters who have no stake in the argument, but who are willing to retweet on behalf of it.

Quote from: Squidi on August 30, 2021, 04:11:36 PM
The only defense for an edgy work like the Goblin Slayer TTRPG existing is that it is good.

You say it is good because it is profitable/popular. To that I say: Captain Marvel and Twilight.

Quote from: Squidi on August 31, 2021, 01:39:24 PM
Rape is a real problem and maybe we shouldn't support works that endorse or trivialize it (ignoring the fact that Goblin Slayer is anything but pro-rape - it is literally a fate worse than death in the novels)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect you're misunderstanding the arguments being made by the SJWs here (which is fair, they don't articulate it well). GS, like a lot of fiction actually and particularly grimdark/grimderp fiction, uses rape purely for shock value in a gratuitous and exploitative fashion. It doesn't change any hearts or minds on the topic of rape (we already know it's bad, we don't need to be told twice), and in fact may very well contribute further to the prevalence of already pernicious pervasive harmful rape myths: in this case, that rape is only ever committed by roving rape gangs, only ever against women and girls, and that the victims are left damaged goods forever, all of which is emphatically not the case in real life. These myths are pervasive in real life and contribute to the continued stigmatization of survivors in real life.

Altho Redo of Healer is worse. While I give it credit for defying common myths by making the male protagonist a rape survivor who is abused by those in a position of trust, it immediately goes completely off the deep end of poor taste by having him use his trauma as an excuse to become a serial killer/torturer/rapist/mind-rapist. The script still treats him as the hero thru all this and expects us to sympathize with him. No, it's not supposed to a tragedy, this is a genuine wish-fulfillment story. It's like I Spit on Your Grave except instead of killing her rapists the heroine tortured and mutilated them for a while, used magic to heal their injuries, brainwashed them into fucking each other, made them her harem and pegged them with cactuses whenever she felt bored. As an abusee myself who had to be talked down from attempting to murder my abuser (who totally deserved it btw), I find this not only disgusting but personally offensive and not remotely cathartic or empowering.

This sort of flippant and exploitative treatment of abuse is churned out by the truckloads all the time. None of this endorses rape, no, but it definitely trivializes it. It's the equivalent of writing anti-Semitic fiction in a world where the Holocaust never ended and was artificially extended by the Nazis breeding Jews on farms specifically for the purpose of torturing them and posting it to PornHub. Except we do live in a world where sex trafficking, rape, female infanticide, etc are huge global problems. At the very least the grimderp fiction is tone-deaf.

I'm almost done with the second light novel and came across this passage:

"The goblins never thought for a second that they were attacking the adventurers.

It was they who were under attack. Goblins saw themselves as victims in all things, and so it was everyone else's fault if the goblins fought back."

Maybe the real reason why Goblin Slayer is disliked by SJWs is that it hits too close for home?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 31, 2021, 03:32:28 PMYou say it is good because it is profitable/popular. To that I say: Captain Marvel and Twilight.

It's more like, because it is good, it has an audience. With enough marketing, you can force anything to appear popular. Captain Marvel was certainly omnipresent at the time, but since then, it rarely gets mentioned in a positive light. Literally nobody is looking forward to Captain Marvel 2 (which is why it isn't named after Captain Marvel anymore), while lots of people are still reading the Goblin Slayer novels and looking forward to a second season.

QuoteGS, like a lot of fiction actually and particularly grimdark/grimderp fiction, uses rape purely for shock value in a gratuitous and exploitative fashion.

I'd argue that Goblin Slayer is doing exactly the opposite. There's absolutely nothing gratuitous or exploitative about the rape in Goblin Slayer (at least, as far as I've read so far). Its very presence is what people are objecting too, regardless of how relevant or important it is to the plot, characters, and world building. There is no amount of rape that is acceptable to them.

Quotein this case, that rape is only ever committed by roving rape gangs, only ever against women and girls, and that the victims are left damaged goods forever, all of which is emphatically not the case in real life. These myths are pervasive in real life and contribute to the continued stigmatization of survivors in real life.

It is how the goblins propagate their species, though procreation is just one aspect of the rape. They are also extremely evil creatures that take sadistic pleasure in the horrors they commit (which makes it justifiable that GS would feel no remorse in killing them, even goblin children). Calling them rape gangs undersells the pure evil of these creatures. They are self centered hedonism personified. Desire without restraint.

As for the damaged goods part, the goblins don't exactly stop at rape. The Sword Maiden, who is admitted damaged from her experiences, has scars all over her body and her eyes were burned to near blindness by torches. Her character is one of the world's heroes, having stopped the resurrection of the demon lord. She's the head of law and justice in the frontier, and a very powerful and respected woman. She purposefully hides her damage from others, partly because they wouldn't understand (which is why she confides in GS), but also because she is ashamed and impure. This makes her a much more three dimensional character than a typical quest giver, and gives her betrayal of the adventurers a tragic gravitas.

I understand that she will continue to show up in further novels, and is even featured in a prequel novel series, and to be perfectly honest, she is a tragic character than can hold the weight of a story without it being exploitative or gratuitous. She is a much more interesting character than, say, Priestess, who has thus far largely taken the role of Watson to GS' Holmes (to be fair, she is shown working to overcome the trauma of her first encounter with goblins, and has gained a quiet strength in her attempts to catch up to GS).

QuoteAltho Redo of Healer is worse.

I agree. It did not seem to have the tragic strength of Goblin Slayer, nor the frustrating pathos of Rising of Shield Hero. I felt it reveled a bit too much in its sadism, and I admit that I didn't stick around more than a few episodes.

QuoteNone of this endorses rape, no, but it definitely trivializes it.

I could not disagree more, at least as far as Goblin Slayer is concerned. Many of the characters are traumatized by goblins on a deep psychological level, and it manifests in very different way. GS's trauma is completely internalized, and he's lost the ability to see anything beyond his vengeance (at least, until he joined an adventuring party). Priestess would probably be broken by her experience, if not for her hero worship of GS giving her the strength to keep going and an example to follow (it is similar for the girl in the GS movie). Sword Maiden keeps it as a hidden weakness, while the rest of the world admires her strength and what she represents.

They are all touched by trauma and deal with it in different ways. But none of them are defeated by it. It is something they carry with them at all times. In many ways, it defines them. It has certainly changed them, fundamentally and forever. But at the same time, they don't succumb to it. They are, in fact, both made weaker and stronger by it.

How does that trivialize their trauma? It is taken quite seriously. It is never something they just overcome during a commercial break or which is forgotten about between episodes. Nor is it ever something that happens to them on a whim or in a contrived way to move the plot forward artificially, or fill the screen time with a quota of ripped bodices. It is established early on as a consequence of living in a world with goblins, and not taking them seriously as a threat.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 31, 2021, 03:32:28 PMGS, like a lot of fiction actually and particularly grimdark/grimderp fiction, uses rape purely for shock value in a gratuitous and exploitative fashion.

Yes. Id say without that Rape scene, the show is largely generic NOTHING. Its on the pile of trash like Shield hero, 'The time I woke up naked in a monster high school!?'.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 31, 2021, 01:18:10 PM
It's a great channel. The main dude, I can't remember his name at the moment, is as sharp as a blade and takes no fucking prisoners. And his wife is Japanese, so he knows a lot about the culture.

Oh my gosh. Thanks for the tip. I'm loving these guys. I loved when he asked his wife if Oriental Adventures offended her and she's like....nah. LOL

Quote from: Squidi on August 31, 2021, 11:18:51 AM
It's a form of emotional manipulation designed to give them a moral dominance over the debate. You can't argue against them, because that would be arguing against minorities or something.

For me, the real problem is where they invent problems where none exist, not to give them a sense of superiority, but as a way to insert themselves into discussions and properties that otherwise would not give them the time of day. "The Problem With Apu" isn't about Apu, much less the Simpsons. It's about the guy who made the documentary (who even puts his face on the poster). He uses his grievance to piggyback on the popularity and success of the Simpsons, because otherwise, nobody would notice him or his documentaries - what terrifies him at night is obscurity.

There is not a problem with orcs. There is a problem with the people who say there is a problem with orcs. Even they don't believe their own malarky. Yes, it makes them look crazy. Yes, everybody thinks they are full of crap. But it's too late. At the point you are noticing that Daniel Kwon exists, he's already accomplished his goal.

You speak common sense. I agree with this.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 31, 2021, 08:22:23 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 31, 2021, 03:32:28 PMGS, like a lot of fiction actually and particularly grimdark/grimderp fiction, uses rape purely for shock value in a gratuitous and exploitative fashion.

Yes. Id say without that Rape scene, the show is largely generic NOTHING. Its on the pile of trash like Shield hero, 'The time I woke up naked in a monster high school!?'.

Yes. Aside from the controversial content, they're generic and tropey as fuck. 99% of anime/manga/light novels is utter interchangeable tripe. I don't trust fansite rating systems because actual torture-porn like Redo of Healer gets a 6/10.

Torture-porn with no redeeming values is considered "average" by anime standards. [insert reference to Event Horizon where Lawrence Fishburn says "we're leaving" after seeing the video of the Event Horizon crew going to literal hell.]

I've given up on watching/reading anything from Japan unless I feel masochistic and want to metaphorically stab myself in the eyes. I don't have time to swim naked through an ocean of shit to find what few gemstones that exist.

I honestly don't understand how so many people can think all this tripe is genuinely good. Have the SJWs really poisoned pop culture so much that people have become desperate enough to prop up this tripe? Or has humanity always been this tasteless and I just didn't notice?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 31, 2021, 10:20:24 PMYes. Aside from the controversial content, they're generic and tropey as fuck.

Yes. And tropy in a super dull way.

QuoteTorture-porn with no redeeming values is considered "average" by anime standards.

I would have defended against this qoute like 10 years ago, but with how popular the Reincarnation genre is in recent years and the general decline in quality I would say this is now a accurate qoute.

QuoteI honestly don't understand how so many people can think all this tripe is genuinely good. Have the SJWs really poisoned pop culture so much that people have become desperate enough to prop up this tripe? Or has humanity always been this tasteless and I just didn't notice?

Humanity as a whole is utterly tasteless. And for some people the answer is yes.

But for many people Id say this became a sort of 'line in the sand last refuge'.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 31, 2021, 10:20:24 PM
I've given up on watching/reading anything from Japan unless I feel masochistic and want to metaphorically stab myself in the eyes. I don't have time to swim naked through an ocean of shit to find what few gemstones that exist.

A strange, unnecessarily hostile opinion, if I must say. Personally, I don't like to close doors of opportunity through sheer exertion of my own ignorance, but hey, you do you.

QuoteI honestly don't understand how so many people can think all this tripe is genuinely good.

I would have no problem sitting here, writing at extreme length about why I think it is genuinely good - but something tells me that your ears are as closed as your mind, so it would be a wasted effort.

But for the others who are curious, I'll at least say one thing. Having been a writer of tropey fantasy cliches myself, one of the hardest things to write is catharsis (just like the hardest comedy to write is a farce, which is itself, a comedic catharsis). It is something that requires structural support throughout the entire work, building upon emotional Checkov's Guns that have been subtlety worked into the journey. If you do it right, the reader doesn't even recognize that it is going on. It just manifests itself as a longing that they can't quite put their finger on. A gnawing hunger in their soul that demands something, but they don't know what. When done well, you don't even realize it until that perfect event happens that brings down the whole house of cards in a single masterstroke, creating a powerful emotional release as the weight you didn't even know existed has lifted.

The way that I know that Goblin Slayer is not a lazy work is because, in the two novels I've read so far, both have ended with, what I would consider, fairly effective cathartic moments. These are not things you can fake, or stumble upon accidentally. They must be carefully built up, if they are to be effective. The author must recognize things about the characters that goes through their exterior, to their very cores. And the characters must have cores in the first place.

Now, for my money, Astro City is the masterclass in catharsis, though there's certainly others I highly respect for it (like One Piece or Great Teacher Onizuka). Goblin Slayer doesn't quite elevate itself to that level. But it tries, and it doesn't fail. That's more than I can say about a great many works of fiction.

Most Western fiction these days considers victory itself to be satisfaction alone, even when the victory is unearned, or when it has no purpose or value to the characters. Captain Marvel, for example, acts like a super villain during the last act of her movie, but we are supposed to cheer her fighting dirty and mocking her underdog enemies because... what? She's the main character? The lesson is that true power is the power to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the women - feel free to use your godlike powers trivially, hatefully, and with excessive pettiness, for with great power comes no responsibility

Goblin Slayer is smart enough to realize that the emotional crux of the story is never just victory over the goblins. In the first book, it is about GS no longer being an outsider, and in the second book, it is about the Sword Maiden having someone who, finally, will save her from her own fear. I thought these scenes were quite effective, and made a quality exclamation point on the end of a fun journey.

I should also say that while I watched the anime a while ago, I'm reading the novels now with the knowledge that the TTRPG is coming out. It has made the world building a bit more explicit than it probably would've been otherwise, as I'm actively looking out for it. There is more to the GS world than is suggested by the anime.

I wonder what these pearl-clutching types think of Gate.

Quote from: Squidi on August 31, 2021, 11:49:51 PMThe way that I know that Goblin Slayer is not a lazy work is because, in the two novels I've read so far, both have ended with, what I would consider, fairly effective cathartic moments.

I would say eating a big-mac can be pretty satisfying, and as a whole the thing is a masterwork of culinary engineering, balancing price, with taste, with accessibility.
But outside of the short-term catharcis, the thing is horribly bad for you. Thats my opinion on the new slew of anime, and the whole isekai trend.

I get it, the west has been moving to shut down any source of just enjoyment that isn't propaganda puff pieces. But I find this trend of just carnal power fantasy just as worrying a counter-cultural force.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 01, 2021, 07:40:20 AM
I wonder what these pearl-clutching types think of Gate.

Them pearl clutching doesn't make Gate any less of a JSDF wankfest.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on September 01, 2021, 08:26:09 AM

Quote from: Squidi on August 31, 2021, 11:49:51 PMThe way that I know that Goblin Slayer is not a lazy work is because, in the two novels I've read so far, both have ended with, what I would consider, fairly effective cathartic moments.

I would say eating a big-mac can be pretty satisfying, and as a whole the thing is a masterwork of culinary engineering, balancing price, with taste, with accessibility.
But outside of the short-term catharcis, the thing is horribly bad for you. Thats my opinion on the new slew of anime, and the whole isekai trend.

I get it, the west has been moving to shut down any source of just enjoyment that isn't propaganda puff pieces. But I find this trend of just carnal power fantasy just as worrying a counter-cultural force.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 01, 2021, 07:40:20 AM
I wonder what these pearl-clutching types think of Gate.

Them pearl clutching doesn't make Gate any less of a JSDF wankfest.

I'll take JSDF wanking over retarded SJW behavior any day.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on September 01, 2021, 09:18:24 AMI'll take JSDF wanking over retarded SJW behavior any day.

Id rather just not read wank. =P
I find myself rather underserved.