Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 03:10:26 PMAt the end of the day, if people want to be prudish or sensitive about certain subjects that's fine. It's really none of my business, and I don't care what they play, just as long as they don't try and control others.

Agreed. I would even argue it would be good to be polite to those that are squeemish, as long as its not a social or lawful mandate.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 30, 2021, 03:50:38 PM
Censorship. It's censorship.

Well, I've heard some argue that it is "localization".

Regardless, it's obvious that saying "that's censorship" has no affect on the outcome of the discussion. The problem isn't that it is or isn't censorship, the problem is the censor doesn't care - I'd argue because they believe the ends justify the means. Censorship is only bad if it doesn't produce the desired outcome. What's the saying? "No bad tactics, only bad targets"?

The only defense for an edgy work like the Goblin Slayer TTRPG existing is that it is good. RPGnet can ban discussion about it all they want, but if it is good, people will still find it and they will enjoy it (maybe even despite prejudices against it), and the censorship becomes toothless.

One can argue that they don't like Goblin Slayer, but it is quite popular and well liked. It gets highly rated and has a high involvement rate among fans. I've seen it recommended often (even among forums where discussion of it is banned). It's had multiple successful spinoffs (including the TTRPG - localizing a Japanese RPG is rather uncommon, if not unprecedented). All the censorship of all the purple forums in the world won't make a dent in this.

And that's what angers them the most. That there is a substantial market for Goblin Slayer and there's nothing they can do about it... except, perhaps, making it seem even more desirable through their disapproval.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 30, 2021, 03:50:59 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 03:10:26 PMAt the end of the day, if people want to be prudish or sensitive about certain subjects that's fine. It's really none of my business, and I don't care what they play, just as long as they don't try and control others.

Agreed. I would even argue it would be good to be polite to those that are squeemish, as long as its not a social or lawful mandate.

I gave up on being polite to the prude patrol decades ago. Moreso after seeing just how insane they can and will get.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 30, 2021, 03:29:15 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 02:20:19 PM
So we can't have rape mentioned 'off-screen' but yet we can have, god knows what, in other RPGs? All other violence and mayhem is acceptable. Drugs, cannibalism, torture, vile magic, human sacrifice, killing of children, vile monsters that do unspeakable things, sexual deviants, Xenomorphs that rape men and women - who's spawn erupts from a victims belly. I could go on and on... But you get the idea. Do those games propose people go off and do those things? Nope.

Basically, I find your problem with rape 'off screen' hypocritical considering burning people to death and eating women and children is okay. Go figure...

But would you not be better off just ignoring these games in the first place?

But hey, you do you as the saying goes.

I agree with you, actually. I think there's this weird preoccupation with gamers running these weird atrocity contests where we try to see who can design the most vicious monsters, generally with the intent to piss off distant SJWs. I'm satisfied with monsters being plain old bags of loot and XP. I don't need their actions to be detailed beyond "they do bad things, so we have to stop them." Real life is already chock full of awful shit like addiction, disenfranchisement, torture, modern day slavery, endemic rape, etc that's easily the equal of all but the most extreme grimdark fiction. I don't need that detailed in my elf-games because it ruins the escapism for me, unless we're playing heroes who end slavery or whatever.

I wouldn't mind a book about "adult themes" that discusses dealing with such issues in a nuanced and respectful manner for those interested. But in general I think fiction takes a rather flippant attitude towards violence that does a disservice to people who suffer it.

Quote from: SHARK on August 30, 2021, 03:03:03 PM
In a world that has slasher flicks with people being hacked apart by chainsaws, stabbed to death with ice-picks, or slowly skinned alive, with anal sex being taught to 6th graders in elementary schools, the joys of dildos, and 12 year old girls are watching gang-bangs on Pornhub on their Smart Phones every day...

This is precisely why I shy away from gruesome violence and sexual violence. It wrecks my escapism and comes across in poor taste.

When real teenage boys are being trained by their phones to see sex as a brutal act of violence and domination, seeing the same thing repeated in Japanese comics except with thinly-veiled "monsters" just reminds me of how shitty real life is. Humans are the real monsters.

We can't really use that study you posted. I mean, it does'nt correlate to the West per se. That's not to say, that we don't have a problem here with abuse. We do! But it would be a far far cry from those statistics. So RPGs don't really come into it as a factor. In fact, it's very telling that the scale is so huge in those Asia pacific countries, and why they treat women like shit. Hmm... I wonder what that could be?

Another problem with people saying that certain material ruins their 'escapism' is personal tastes. So, I grew up watching horror films: Phantasm, Alien, The Thing, Evil Dead, etc. Yes, my Mum loved horror and allowed me watch it when I was very young. Some people (actually a shitloads) are drawn to dark stuff as their form of escapism.

In some cases violence is glorified or extreme so it may come across as flippant - But basically only because it's nonsense and pure escapism. But we are all pretty normal people. Because (unlike the sjws) we can easily divorce ourselves intellectually from the media we consume. Only someone who's mentally fucked up can't, and they need  professional help in most cases.

Teenage boys and pornography is a problem (science tells us so) - The kids need to be well educated on the subject and then understand that it's porn and not reality. But that is a subject far beyond role playing games of make believe. Sure, it should be for over 18s and harder to access but now that genies out of a bottle through unscrupulous vendors.

Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against (legal) pornography, but parents are not doing their kids any favors by keeping it all under wraps. Kids need to understand consent (especially men!). When I was a kid, it was all about top-shelf magazines. Mind you, tasteful pornography like that didn't stop or add to men abusing women in the 70' and 80s.

What I'm trying to say is, don't blame a person's actions on weaponizing the usual suspects: Porn, violent video games, manga, sex work, 18+ RPGs, violent or horror movies (or insert X bogyman here). Unless there is sufficient scientific data, and we can't count aberrant behavior from some psycho mad fucker. Personally, I'd be far more worried about some religious extremist nutter.

But you shying away from violence or horror is fine. You playing a family friendly elf game is fine. But that would bore the shit out of me personally. It's only when people try and interfere with what other people find enjoyable it becomes a problem. AKA - the bed wetters on twitter.  As far as I'm concerned, as long as it's consenting adults and people know what they are getting into beforhand then it's fine. That's not to say I revel in extreme violence in RPGs. Most of my adventures are pretty banal. They will have no sex, but probably a shitload of violence and a good mystery. Oh, And a lot of damage to humans in the form of being brutally murdered or sacrificed, if it's in Call of Cthulhu. The dark gods need their blood.

As for people being edge lords just for the sake of it. I think is pretty rare these days in 2020. And now, in horror/violent games there is nearly always a big chunk on player's safety and fee fees. I'm a bit cynical for that myself, as I don't think any 'normal person' can be 'damaged' by an imaginary RPG. And if they can, it might be better that they took some responsibility and played games that they could handle. If you decide to play Kult or CoC and the GM tells you that it's for mature people with 18+ content, then I'm sorry, but you got the memo...

I mean, making a game just to be edgy seems a bit juvenile. However, given the recent blow back from the strident woke crowd and zealot weirdo Christians I'm happy if people want to make shit just to piss them off. Nothing wrong with some obnoxious humor and satire just to rattle the cage every now and then. That's why we need LoTFP and Jame's Raggi, etc. Alas, we can no longer rely on WFRP anymore.

I do agree with you however... Humans are the only monsters you'll ever meet. I've been teaching self-defense for years (men & women) and virtually everyone I've trained has a very horrific story to tell.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on August 30, 2021, 03:50:59 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 03:10:26 PMAt the end of the day, if people want to be prudish or sensitive about certain subjects that's fine. It's really none of my business, and I don't care what they play, just as long as they don't try and control others.

Agreed. I would even argue it would be good to be polite to those that are squeemish, as long as its not a social or lawful mandate.

Yeah, I don't advocate being 'mean' to someone, especially if they are interested in gaming with you (or pop into a facebook group). It's more the twatter crowd but never the casual gamer. As far as I'm concerned everyone should be welcome to play RPGs - Unless their an asshole.

Quote from: Squidi on August 30, 2021, 03:33:09 PM
Judging, criticizing, and ultimately changing Japanese works solely from the perspective of an American is... we need a word that means the opposite of "cultural appropriation"... Cultural oppression, maybe? Cultural colonization? Nonconsensual cultural penetration?

"Cultural Sanitization" would be how I would put it...

Quote from: Squidi on August 30, 2021, 04:11:36 PM
...
The only defense for an edgy work like the Goblin Slayer TTRPG existing is that it is good. RPGnet can ban discussion about it all they want, but if it is good, people will still find it and they will enjoy it (maybe even despite prejudices against it), and the censorship becomes toothless.

One can argue that they don't like Goblin Slayer, but it is quite popular and well liked. It gets highly rated and has a high involvement rate among fans. I've seen it recommended often (even among forums where discussion of it is banned). It's had multiple successful spinoffs (including the TTRPG - localizing a Japanese RPG is rather uncommon, if not unprecedented). All the censorship of all the purple forums in the world won't make a dent in this.

And that's what angers them the most. That there is a substantial market for Goblin Slayer and there's nothing they can do about it... except, perhaps, making it seem even more desirable through their disapproval.

Very much This.

As proven in this thread, when it comes to its alleged 'Edgyness' - it is no more edgy than The Game of Thrones tv series...

The censoring of all things GS in the RPG community is over-the-top when you take an objective look at its actual content.

Why does Goblin Slayer seems to be singled out for a special level of visceral hate?


Ok kids, uncle Jaeger is about to go off of the deep end again - Prepare yourselves...

*adjusts Tin-Foil Hat that knows no limit*

Just look at the GS 'adventuring party':


You have a lizard man (which no one bats an eye at), old due with a ponytail and ear plugs, Elf girl, Priestess girl, and a dude in armor.

With nonsense worldbuilding, Cutesy Anime art, a gender and racially diverse adventuring party; On the surface, Goblin Slayer ticks all the right boxes for a new-school Woke Anime & RPG!

The cool kids should be eating this up!

And I'm willing to bet that at a first glance many of them wanted to.

After all, Slayers are cool right?  Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Goblin Slayer, 'i's' dotted and 'T's' crossed; From the name of the series to the composition of the main cast, this one sure looks like a made for SJW fandom winner! Right!

Right?

But then:

BOOYAKASHA BITCHES!



Expectations. Subverted. Motherfuckers.

They love to dish it out, but...

They really, really, really, have a hard time choking it down when it comes back the other way...


IMHO - The fact that Goblin Slayer didn't do any of this intentionally just makes their reaction all the more ridiculous.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 07:07:50 PM

As for people being edge lords just for the sake of it. I think is pretty rare these days in 2020. And now, in horror/violent games there is nearly always a big chunk on player's safety and fee fees. I'm a bit cynical for that myself, as I don't think any 'normal person' can be 'damaged' by an imaginary RPG. And if they can, it might be better that they took some responsibility and played games that they could handle. If you decide to play Kult or CoC and the GM tells you that it's for mature people with 18+ content, then I'm sorry, but you got the memo...

I mean, making a game just to be edgy seems a bit juvenile. However, given the recent blow back from the strident woke crowd and zealot weirdo Christians I'm happy if people want to make shit just to piss them off. Nothing wrong with some obnoxious humor and satire just to rattle the cage every now and then. That's why we need LoTFP and Jame's Raggi, etc. Alas, we can no longer rely on WFRP anymore.

Oh gawds yas this. I've been so baffled by the constant sjw claim that they know people who were hurt by the depiction of orcs or drow.....and I'm like in what way? But no satisfactory answers. How has Daniel Kwan been hurt by Oriental Adventures? I've never found an answer. I'm gonna sound like a green blooded vulcan but.....it's so illogical.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 30, 2021, 07:14:06 PM

Expectations. Subverted. Motherfuckers.

They love to dish it out, but...

They really, really, really, have a hard time choking it down when it comes back the other way...


IMHO - The fact that Goblin Slayer didn't do any of this intentionally just makes their reaction all the more ridiculous.

Yup, they love to dish it out but when we throw the term 'woke' at them they sure hate it. Just like they throw the term 'bigot' out anytime they want.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 30, 2021, 11:55:25 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 07:07:50 PM

As for people being edge lords just for the sake of it. I think is pretty rare these days in 2020. And now, in horror/violent games there is nearly always a big chunk on player's safety and fee fees. I'm a bit cynical for that myself, as I don't think any 'normal person' can be 'damaged' by an imaginary RPG. And if they can, it might be better that they took some responsibility and played games that they could handle. If you decide to play Kult or CoC and the GM tells you that it's for mature people with 18+ content, then I'm sorry, but you got the memo...

I mean, making a game just to be edgy seems a bit juvenile. However, given the recent blow back from the strident woke crowd and zealot weirdo Christians I'm happy if people want to make shit just to piss them off. Nothing wrong with some obnoxious humor and satire just to rattle the cage every now and then. That's why we need LoTFP and Jame's Raggi, etc. Alas, we can no longer rely on WFRP anymore.

Oh gawds yas this. I've been so baffled by the constant sjw claim that they know people who were hurt by the depiction of orcs or drow.....and I'm like in what way? But no satisfactory answers. How has Daniel Kwan been hurt by Oriental Adventures? I've never found an answer. I'm gonna sound like a green blooded vulcan but.....it's so illogical.

It's utter nonsense... People's fee fees hurt by orcs. Those people are clearly not right in the head, or are looking for a bogus cause they can 'champion'. It's a completely made up narrative. Orcs are not black people or any other minorities. Their savagery is based on the book (or games) plot only. Basically, being set up as the bad guys.

Daniel Kwon, the epic oxygen thief, is clearly a waste of atoms. His arguments are as ridiculous as his man-bun.

What I love about these people is, as you've pointed out that there is no evidence at all to prove any of their points. It's all this emotive mumbo jumpo pleading.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 30, 2021, 07:14:06 PM

Quote from: Squidi on August 30, 2021, 03:33:09 PM
Judging, criticizing, and ultimately changing Japanese works solely from the perspective of an American is... we need a word that means the opposite of "cultural appropriation"... Cultural oppression, maybe? Cultural colonization? Nonconsensual cultural penetration?

"Cultural Sanitization" would be how I would put it...

Quote from: Squidi on August 30, 2021, 04:11:36 PM
...
The only defense for an edgy work like the Goblin Slayer TTRPG existing is that it is good. RPGnet can ban discussion about it all they want, but if it is good, people will still find it and they will enjoy it (maybe even despite prejudices against it), and the censorship becomes toothless.

One can argue that they don't like Goblin Slayer, but it is quite popular and well liked. It gets highly rated and has a high involvement rate among fans. I've seen it recommended often (even among forums where discussion of it is banned). It's had multiple successful spinoffs (including the TTRPG - localizing a Japanese RPG is rather uncommon, if not unprecedented). All the censorship of all the purple forums in the world won't make a dent in this.

And that's what angers them the most. That there is a substantial market for Goblin Slayer and there's nothing they can do about it... except, perhaps, making it seem even more desirable through their disapproval.

Very much This.

As proven in this thread, when it comes to its alleged 'Edgyness' - it is no more edgy than The Game of Thrones tv series...

The censoring of all things GS in the RPG community is over-the-top when you take an objective look at its actual content.

Why does Goblin Slayer seems to be singled out for a special level of visceral hate?


Ok kids, uncle Jaeger is about to go off of the deep end again - Prepare yourselves...

*adjusts Tin-Foil Hat that knows no limit*

Just look at the GS 'adventuring party':


You have a lizard man (which no one bats an eye at), old due with a ponytail and ear plugs, Elf girl, Priestess girl, and a dude in armor.

With nonsense worldbuilding, Cutesy Anime art, a gender and racially diverse adventuring party; On the surface, Goblin Slayer ticks all the right boxes for a new-school Woke Anime & RPG!

The cool kids should be eating this up!

And I'm willing to bet that at a first glance many of them wanted to.

After all, Slayers are cool right?  Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Goblin Slayer, 'i's' dotted and 'T's' crossed; From the name of the series to the composition of the main cast, this one sure looks like a made for SJW fandom winner! Right!

Right?

But then:

BOOYAKASHA BITCHES!



Expectations. Subverted. Motherfuckers.

They love to dish it out, but...

They really, really, really, have a hard time choking it down when it comes back the other way...


IMHO - The fact that Goblin Slayer didn't do any of this intentionally just makes their reaction all the more ridiculous.

Greetings!

Fucking GREAT! I love it! The subverted expectations! *laughing* The surprised look of horror...the sobbing...oh my god...*Laughing*

Let the PLUNDERING BEGIN!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 31, 2021, 07:06:23 AM
It's utter nonsense... People's fee fees hurt by orcs. Those people are clearly not right in the head, or are looking for a bogus cause they can 'champion'. It's a completely made up narrative.

It's a form of emotional manipulation designed to give them a moral dominance over the debate. You can't argue against them, because that would be arguing against minorities or something.

For me, the real problem is where they invent problems where none exist, not to give them a sense of superiority, but as a way to insert themselves into discussions and properties that otherwise would not give them the time of day. "The Problem With Apu" isn't about Apu, much less the Simpsons. It's about the guy who made the documentary (who even puts his face on the poster). He uses his grievance to piggyback on the popularity and success of the Simpsons, because otherwise, nobody would notice him or his documentaries - what terrifies him at night is obscurity.

There is not a problem with orcs. There is a problem with the people who say there is a problem with orcs. Even they don't believe their own malarky. Yes, it makes them look crazy. Yes, everybody thinks they are full of crap. But it's too late. At the point you are noticing that Daniel Kwon exists, he's already accomplished his goal.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 30, 2021, 11:55:25 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 07:07:50 PM

As for people being edge lords just for the sake of it. I think is pretty rare these days in 2020. And now, in horror/violent games there is nearly always a big chunk on player's safety and fee fees. I'm a bit cynical for that myself, as I don't think any 'normal person' can be 'damaged' by an imaginary RPG. And if they can, it might be better that they took some responsibility and played games that they could handle. If you decide to play Kult or CoC and the GM tells you that it's for mature people with 18+ content, then I'm sorry, but you got the memo...

I mean, making a game just to be edgy seems a bit juvenile. However, given the recent blow back from the strident woke crowd and zealot weirdo Christians I'm happy if people want to make shit just to piss them off. Nothing wrong with some obnoxious humor and satire just to rattle the cage every now and then. That's why we need LoTFP and Jame's Raggi, etc. Alas, we can no longer rely on WFRP anymore.

Oh gawds yas this. I've been so baffled by the constant sjw claim that they know people who were hurt by the depiction of orcs or drow.....and I'm like in what way? But no satisfactory answers. How has Daniel Kwan been hurt by Oriental Adventures? I've never found an answer. I'm gonna sound like a green blooded vulcan but.....it's so illogical.

  I think people who say that are just liars.   If Oriental Adventures hurt Danial Kwan, then the Shaw Brothers literally decapitated him.

Quote from: Squidi on August 31, 2021, 11:18:51 AM
There is not a problem with orcs. There is a problem with the people who say there is a problem with orcs. Even they don't believe their own malarky. Yes, it makes them look crazy. Yes, everybody thinks they are full of crap. But it's too late. At the point you are noticing that Daniel Kwon exists, he's already accomplished his goal.

Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. He's known now.

Quote from: oggsmash on August 31, 2021, 11:21:53 AM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 30, 2021, 11:55:25 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 30, 2021, 07:07:50 PM

As for people being edge lords just for the sake of it. I think is pretty rare these days in 2020. And now, in horror/violent games there is nearly always a big chunk on player's safety and fee fees. I'm a bit cynical for that myself, as I don't think any 'normal person' can be 'damaged' by an imaginary RPG. And if they can, it might be better that they took some responsibility and played games that they could handle. If you decide to play Kult or CoC and the GM tells you that it's for mature people with 18+ content, then I'm sorry, but you got the memo...

I mean, making a game just to be edgy seems a bit juvenile. However, given the recent blow back from the strident woke crowd and zealot weirdo Christians I'm happy if people want to make shit just to piss them off. Nothing wrong with some obnoxious humor and satire just to rattle the cage every now and then. That's why we need LoTFP and Jame's Raggi, etc. Alas, we can no longer rely on WFRP anymore.

Oh gawds yas this. I've been so baffled by the constant sjw claim that they know people who were hurt by the depiction of orcs or drow.....and I'm like in what way? But no satisfactory answers. How has Daniel Kwan been hurt by Oriental Adventures? I've never found an answer. I'm gonna sound like a green blooded vulcan but.....it's so illogical.

  I think people who say that are just liars.   If Oriental Adventures hurt Danial Kwan, then the Shaw Brothers literally decapitated him.

Yeah, very true... I see a lot of these woksters just virtue signalling so they can gain a bit of a following, and then wheedle themselves into the industry. Mind you, it worked for little Dani Kwon.

Worth a watch in case you missed it, on the Legion of Myth's YT channel they obliterated their arguments against Oriental Adventures. They also offered to debate the little man bun, but he ran to the hills and blocked all the 'nasty men'. LOL

I don't have any respect or time for someone who spouts out claims, but refuses to hear any counter points to their argument.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on August 31, 2021, 01:01:48 PM

Worth a watch in case you missed it, on the Legion of Myth's YT channel they obliterated their arguments against Oriental Adventures. They also offered to debate the little man bun, but he ran to the hills and blocked all the 'nasty men'. LOL

I don't have any respect or time for someone who spouts out claims, but refuses to hear any counter points to their argument.

oh, didn't know that. I'll look em up.