Quote from: Charlie Sheen;643564Really? MMO players bitch about everything. Though six or seven years ago the whole follow the glowing arrow through the game thing wasn't as prominent.

I was also not a Hordie, so no real reason for me to hear bitching about their problems.

But anyway, look at a more modern game like Skyrim. I just started playing that this week, and... hot damn, there are places you do not want to go just starting out. Going exploring in that game is quite entertaining, but there are places that you get into or even just vaguely near and something will tear your ass a new one if you're not ready for it. Hell, I'm like thirty-ish hours in, and there are still places that will kick my ass with minimal effort.

I don't (and didn't, back when it was still new) hear anybody complaining about Skyrim doing this sort of thing.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;643571I was also not a Hordie, so no real reason for me to hear bitching about their problems.

But anyway, look at a more modern game like Skyrim. I just started playing that this week, and... hot damn, there are places you do not want to go just starting out. Going exploring in that game is quite entertaining, but there are places that you get into or even just vaguely near and something will tear your ass a new one if you're not ready for it. Hell, I'm like thirty-ish hours in, and there are still places that will kick my ass with minimal effort.

I don't (and didn't, back when it was still new) hear anybody complaining about Skyrim doing this sort of thing.

This is also odd, because the same people that prefer casual/easy type games don't complain about that.

Mostly it's people getting mad they went into the graveyard straight away. You know which one.

Quote from: Charlie Sheen;643572This is also odd, because the same people that prefer casual/easy type games don't complain about that.

So that would seem to imply that "hardcore" players are more likely to complain about unbalanced encounters...

That actually makes a lot of sense to me. If you look at 4e, and the sorts of players that bought into it, they complained about unbalanced encounters while also being extremely munchkin-y.

Meanwhile more casual players, or players less inclined to fetishize mechanics (an almost necessary precursor to becoming overly concerned with game balance), are less concerned about unbalanced encounters because they are less concerned with the concept of balance on a higher level.

QuoteMostly it's people getting mad they went into the graveyard straight away. You know which one.

I, um... no?

Quote from: GnomeWorks;643575So that would seem to imply that "hardcore" players are more likely to complain about unbalanced encounters...

That actually makes a lot of sense to me. If you look at 4e, and the sorts of players that bought into it, they complained about unbalanced encounters while also being extremely munchkin-y.

Meanwhile more casual players, or players less inclined to fetishize mechanics (an almost necessary precursor to becoming overly concerned with game balance), are less concerned about unbalanced encounters because they are less concerned with the concept of balance on a higher level.

No, that wasn't what I was saying.

The hardcore players will either not walk into the graveyard first, or walk into it, die, and realize they're not supposed to go there yet. They might even go in and handle it anyways, but not on their first playthrough.

The casual sorts will go in there, die, and blame the game for not telling them... yet if a casual game does the exact same thing you don't hear anyone calling Skyrim too hardcore.

QuoteI, um... no?

Nevermind that example then.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;643571I was also not a Hordie, so no real reason for me to hear bitching about their problems.

But anyway, look at a more modern game like Skyrim. I just started playing that this week, and... hot damn, there are places you do not want to go just starting out. Going exploring in that game is quite entertaining, but there are places that you get into or even just vaguely near and something will tear your ass a new one if you're not ready for it. Hell, I'm like thirty-ish hours in, and there are still places that will kick my ass with minimal effort.

I don't (and didn't, back when it was still new) hear anybody complaining about Skyrim doing this sort of thing.

I started Hordeside back in Wrath, and discovered the hard way that going from The Ghostlands to Eastern Plaguelands was not a good idea.  I didn't mind, and my guildies had a good laugh over it, but you'd be surprised at the amount of bitching that went on in the forums over it.  I'd not be surprised that the complaints were part of the reason why in Cataclysm they remade the Plaguelands to upper-30s/lower-40s, and would make flight points appear automatically when you reached the correct level for it.  (Although the counter bitching about "spoon feeding" players led to removing the auto discovery in the latest patch.)

I remember the time I made it to the Badlands for the first time on a PvP server, dashing all the way from Arathi through Wetlands and Loch Modan, and was thrilled to make it to the end.  Likewise, that first mad dash through the Western and Eastern Plaguelands to reach Light's Hope Chapel is one of my biggest WoW memories.  

If you're supposed to win and the deck is stacked in your favor, then the challenge isn't going to be necessarily memorable.

Quote from: Charlie Sheen;643578The casual sorts will go in there, die, and blame the game for not telling them... yet if a casual game does the exact same thing you don't hear anyone calling Skyrim too hardcore.

I... seem utterly unable to follow what you're getting at here.

Apparently I really need to get some sleep soon.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;643580I... seem utterly unable to follow what you're getting at here.

Apparently I really need to get some sleep soon.

I'm saying the same people that complain about a hardcore game being hardcore won't complain about a casual game being hardcore. Even though that actually would be objectionable, since you're not getting what you expected.

And so the same people that get mad they die from high level skeletons in one game do not get mad they die from high level whatevers in another game. Even though the situations are identical - you went into an area beyond your ability to handle, and the enemies didn't suddenly get easier for it.

I don't get the point of any real GM-sadism; what does it matter if you can just say "rocks fall, everyone dies"?

Of course, meaningless accusations of a GM being "sadistic" just because the PCs run through a hard patch is another story...

The bad design in WoW is that it is completely inexplicable how identical monsters vary so wildly in strength.  There's no potential justification for how the zombies on either side of the bulwark vary by like 40 levels.

The game isn't designed in any rational way.  It's all a theme park and you can battle the same scourge from 1-85 and it's basically the same monster (or even in the case of the revamped dungeons the same encounters) at variable strength.

That's why putting that stuff there is bad design, even in PnP games.  Of course most PnP games won't have you fighting the same skeletons at first and max level, but it would still be a dumb idea to put inexplicably powerful monsters or NPCs in places where they should have free reign, but then use some kind of contrived plot constraint to explain why this doesn't happen.

Which MMOs are terrible offenders but it happens a lot in tabletop games as well.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644560That's why putting that stuff there is bad design, even in PnP games.  Of course most PnP games won't have you fighting the same skeletons at first and max level, but it would still be a dumb idea to put inexplicably powerful monsters or NPCs in places where they should have free reign, but then use some kind of contrived plot constraint to explain why this doesn't happen.

I'd argue it depends on the contrivance.

I know that the West Marches guy did this sometimes, but also talked about how he kept the more difficult monsters confined to a given space - things like wraiths only hanging out near their barrows, so the difficulty rating of the hex didn't take the wraiths into account. A dungeon in an early area might have some crazy-sealed door that the super-nasty things were behind, and they couldn't pass the door... etc etc.

Quote from: RPGPundit;644521I don't get the point of any real GM-sadism; what does it matter if you can just say "rocks fall, everyone dies"?

Of course, meaningless accusations of a GM being "sadistic" just because the PCs run through a hard patch is another story...

I fully agree with this.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;643166I think an adversarial GM can be a good thing (they're being a good opponent, challenging the players' abilities).  But a sadistic GM is just a child.

Maybe, but even if this is the case your only options in this case are to walk away or be accommodating.

Quote from: RPGPundit;644521I don't get the point of any real GM-sadism; what does it matter if you can just say "rocks fall, everyone dies"?

Of course, meaningless accusations of a GM being "sadistic" just because the PCs run through a hard patch is another story...

I think sadistic gm's are about power, torture, and 'rats in a maze'.

If they kill the rats, the fun is over.

So 'rocks fall' is only used if they get pissed off when the rats escape the maze.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;644560The bad design in WoW is that it is completely inexplicable how identical monsters vary so wildly in strength.  There's no potential justification for how the zombies on either side of the bulwark vary by like 40 levels.

The game isn't designed in any rational way.  It's all a theme park and you can battle the same scourge from 1-85 and it's basically the same monster (or even in the case of the revamped dungeons the same encounters) at variable strength.

That's why putting that stuff there is bad design, even in PnP games.  Of course most PnP games won't have you fighting the same skeletons at first and max level, but it would still be a dumb idea to put inexplicably powerful monsters or NPCs in places where they should have free reign, but then use some kind of contrived plot constraint to explain why this doesn't happen.

Which MMOs are terrible offenders but it happens a lot in tabletop games as well.

4E dnd suffers from this in so far as it has low level and high level versions of many creatures. To me, its not unlike the zero level and high level people in 1E. Huge disparities bother me on some level.

In 1E a pack of gargoyles would ravage an entire civilization that lacked magic weapons and spells

Quote from: Bill;644669I think sadistic gm's are about power, torture, and 'rats in a maze'.

If they kill the rats, the fun is over.

So 'rocks fall' is only used if they get pissed off when the rats escape the maze.

Yeah, I guess I can see that; but you'd think people would think of more interesting and fun places to express those desires than in a D&D game.

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