Since I coined the phrase "GI Joe Rule" in relation to an extremely moronic and unneeded rule in Rifts Ultimate Edition, I have something of an interest in what affects my sad claim to fame.  So, I was pleased to see a thread over on the Palladium forums talking about my favoritist rule in the whole wide world:

http://forums.palladium-megaverse.com/viewtopic.php?t=69058

Apparrently someone has tried to add some guidelines to the GI Joe Rule to address it's inherent and explicit problem with allowing characters wearing 1 MDC armor to be hit by nuclear weapons inflicting thousands of points of damage and merely have their clothes fall off.

I'll give them this.  At least now it's a firm rule instead of handwavium nonsense.  The rule overall is still stupid as can possibly be, but at least now it has some concrete limits.

Of course, as far as I know, it was only addressed in the Rifter.  Far be it from Palladium to correct it in the second printing of Rifts Ultimate, which we all know was error free.

I have to say - I'm not very good about being consistent on this stuff.

I'm pretty sure at least once or twice I've used the GI Joe rule to destroy a character's armor, but not the character.  Not because it was the rule, but because it was a way to defeat them in combat without killing them.

Then again, I blew up three guys wearing full armor when that fusion blast went off.  One guy got vaporized completely, the other two ended up needing new body parts (bionic replacements for one, demonic replacements for the other).

I guess I'm in the "just leave it up to GM fiat" camp.  I don't necessarily hate the rule (with the caveat for using common sense when to use it), but I don't really think it needed to be added, either.

Again, on the palaldium subject, if you like the ideas and style of rifts but hate the armor rules I must suggest you try battlelords, it's armor rules are much more realistic in that even if you are wearing 'super tough armor' and get hit by a nuike mostly all it does is delay your vaporization by a picosecond or so...

The thing I really don't like about the original version of the rule is a multiple part thing.

First off, Rifts strains verisimilitude a great deal before anything else.  By saying that any armor, no matter how tattered, can stop any blast of any level of damage that verisimilitude is strained to one of many breaking points.  And that's literally what the rule says, any armor protects from any level of damage, no matter how large.

Second, it slows combat, which was already slow as it was.  Most of the time, this rule won't be affecting PCs.  It will be affecting NPC targets.  It requires a minimum of double-tapping every target.  If not, it turns a dark and "gritty" sort of setting into a bad cartoon.  The PCs shoot their CS opponents until their armor falls off and the CS troopers run away in their underoos.  Can't you hear the sound of Cobra Commander yelling "retreat"?

As previously implied, there's the issue of massive damage.  The official stance on this is to use "common sense" to determine how much massive damage is too much.  Of course, remember that the damage values being tossed around are huge.  The rule itself gives an example of 20 points of mega damage being left over after the armor is depleted.  That's 2,000 points of SDC damage.  That's about as much SDC as most vehicles and some houses.  Where is the common sense in the character surviving that kind of hit directly to their body?  There is no "common sense" to adjucate the situation.

Plus, the GI Joe Rule is a change of something which was codified in the rules, and should be handled by the rules, to becoming GM fiat.  Take the following example:

Bill and Ted are SDC soldiers wearing MDC armor.  Bill is wearing a batterred suit with 4 MDC remaining.  Ted is wearing a fresh suit of Triax armor with 100 MDC.

Bill decides that he's going to yell at a Juicer to draw their fire.  He succeeds in his attempt and gets hit by the Juicer's plasma rifle for 24 MD.  This results in his armor being depleted and 20 extra points.  The GM uses "common sense" and declares that Bill is still alive, just in his boxers.

Ted decides he's going to run from a Glitter Boy, because it's a hopeless situation.  The Glitter Boy decides he needs to test his Boom Gun by shooting Ted in the back.  The Glitter Boy hits and does 120 points of damage.  Ted's armor is completely depleted and 20 points are left over.  The GM uses "common sense" and declares that Ted is dead because of the massive amount of damage his armor didn't protect him from.

Ted is justifiably pissed, because the "common sense" here is anything but.  He has no guideline for knowing what his character can survive and what his character cannot.  

At least the new quasi-official Rifter addendum to the rule creates a situation where it is known where the cutoff point for massive damage is, and eliminates the random GM call from the situation.  Ted would live and wouldn't have a reason to be bitchy.  Bill would live unless his armor originally had only 12 MDC. But, the new rule still has it's silliness, mainly that it's overprotective like the rest of the Palladium system.

Addenda

Oh, and to continue my mad rant for a moment.

The cited reason for this rule was to protect PCs from random death.  O-kay...

Except, that's not really too much of a problem.  Yes, Rifts is lethal, but the way MDC values are inflated and weapon damages are so low, it takes multiple hits to even begin to scratch anything.  And PCs are always endeavor to be as high on the defensive scale as they can in the first place.

If ol' KS was really interested in empowering the PCs, he wouldn't write rules which strip away large parts of their defensive capability (-10 to dodge).  He wouldn't inflate monster stats giving enemies +8 to strike and + 16 to defend and 2000 MDC.  He'd let PCs be capable instead of chipping away at their capabilities with each book.

However, I think the real reason for the rule is something entirely different.  It's there to empower the CS.  KS has a massive hard-on for his nazi GM-PCs, and the GI Joe rule most directly affects and improves their capabilities as NPCs.

Quote from: GabrielHowever, I think the real reason for the rule is something entirely different.  It's there to empower the CS.  KS has a massive hard-on for his nazi GM-PCs, and the GI Joe rule most directly affects and improves their capabilities as NPCs.

Whereas I think the real reason is that Kevin stopped actually playing his games a long time ago and doesn't have any playtesting done.  It's pretty hard to know what will make for a good game if you're just going to guess and hope it works.

His poor organizational skills aren't helping, either.  If he could keep track of stuff better, he might be able to create rule changes that actually fit with the rules, instead of just coming out of left field (and pretending things were always that way).

Quote from: jgantsWhereas I think the real reason is that Kevin stopped actually playing his games a long time ago and doesn't have any playtesting done.  It's pretty hard to know what will make for a good game if you're just going to guess and hope it works.

His poor organizational skills aren't helping, either.  If he could keep track of stuff better, he might be able to create rule changes that actually fit with the rules, instead of just coming out of left field (and pretending things were always that way).

This is certainly another part of it.  St. Kev seems completely ignorant and detached from his system.

However, I don't think there's any real denying that the GI Joe rule skews towards giving a new edge to large numbers of MDC armored SDC NPCs, and those are best represented in Rifts by the Coalition.  It wouldn't be the first time reality of the game and setting was warped to give the CS an advantage.

Yes, GI Joe (Action Force) do rule.

Oh... wait... not the thread I thought it was.

Quote from: GRIMYes, GI Joe (Action Force) do rule.

Oh... wait... not the thread I thought it was.

Of course they ruled.  All they ever fought were guys who would drop their weapons and run away if anyone shot a blue laser anywhere near their general direction.

(I think GI Joe had the blue lasers.  It's been a while.)

And whoever Cobra bought their warmachines from was getting unbelievably rich.  After all, the Cobra pilots would jump out of their perfectly operational machines at the merest hint they might potentially be shot at rather than try to evade or something.

Quote from: GabrielAnd whoever Cobra bought their warmachines from was getting unbelievably rich.  After all, the Cobra pilots would jump out of their perfectly operational machines at the merest hint they might potentially be shot at rather than try to evade or something.

Destro provided them with their weapons. He was really more of an independent operator after all.

Its interesting comparing the Action Force/GI Joe backstories and their differences really