Quote from: Snowman0147;726212I guess what I am saying is you offer me a sandbox, but I already have a sandbox.  Sure different system, but they both offer the same thing.  Hell I don't mind doing a lot of modifications and reworking the system.  In fact I love to do that.  It is just to me a sandbox is a sandbox.

Sure, it sounds like for you DW doesn't offer any better tools. No problem for either of us. You have the game you want, fantastic.

For other people, the tools in the game were something new. It helped them understand, or run, or enjoy a sandbox in a way they hadn't before. I'm happy about that too.

Quote from: sage_again;726214Sure, it sounds like for you DW doesn't offer any better tools. No problem for either of us. You have the game you want, fantastic.

For other people, the tools in the game were something new. It helped them understand, or run, or enjoy a sandbox in a way they hadn't before. I'm happy about that too.

This is true.  It never was a waste of time reading it and I am happy with my purchase despite the fact I don't plan on using it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;726218This is true.  It never was a waste of time reading it and I am happy with my purchase despite the fact I don't plan on using it.

Likewise. I found I learned a few things from it, but I never need to play it again.

Same. There were some nifty ideas Ill be lifting for other games, but Ive no interest in running Dungeonworld

I'd only really recommend it to a new gamer whose never GMed before. And even then that would just be if they were like " I dont get Moldvay D&D"

Honest, snark-free questions.

1. What do you feel Dungeon World (and possible X World games in general) do better than the older established game ruleset alternatives?

2. What, if anything, does Dungeon World offer to the experienced but open-minded TSR D&D-head?

Quote from: The Butcher;726348Honest, snark-free questions.

1. What do you feel Dungeon World (and possible X World games in general) do better than the older established game ruleset alternatives?

From my perspective, the real revolution that *World games bring to the table is the way they present characters.  Especially in the more stripped down games like ApocalypseWorld or MonsterHearts, literally everything a new player needs is right there on that character sheet.  They don't have to read the rulebook.  They know exactly what their character can do in plain English.  It's incredible.   When they level up, new moves are right there on the sheet.  

IMO, the *World games' presentation of character information are one of the best ways to bring new players into the hobby we've seen in a while and one of the coolest ways to teach them a new game. My GM handed me a pdf and I was ready to go.  And it's all there in plain English, except for a few terms (Apocalypse World's "Hx", I think, was an example of something that needed explaining, but I think DW's bonds fix that.)

I'm working on writing my own RPG right now, and I stole the whole character-generation/character presentation scheme from the *World games for it.  It's that neat.   I think it's pretty revolutionary, especially if you're doing class-based or archetype-based characters.  

Quote2. What, if anything, does Dungeon World offer to the experienced but open-minded TSR D&D-head?

It depends on what they're looking for.  I mean, I find that it allowed for a lot more intrigue/social-driven play, but if I wanted to do dungeon-crawling and stronghold-building, I don't know that it would replace ACK, for example.  It may be that they only see one or two things of interest, like stealing the downtime partying rules or something.

Quote from: The Butcher;726348Honest, snark-free questions.

1. What do you feel Dungeon World (and possible X World games in general) do better than the older established game ruleset alternatives?

Maybe not "better", but DW does a few things uniquely.

I especially liked the idea of XP for failed rolls. I find the in-game explanation of learning thru failure quite satisfying.

Quote2. What, if anything, does Dungeon World offer to the experienced but open-minded TSR D&D-head?

Just a few unique ideas for streamling D&D. To someone with experience old-school DMing, the DM "Moves" mechanic will likely seem an unecessary codification of how you already DM, but strip that away you're left with a very streamlined variation of D&D that speeds up level progression, simplifies advancement, and gives players a substantial bit of power but not to the extent of 3/.x/4e.

Quote from: The Butcher;726348Honest, snark-free questions.

1. What do you feel Dungeon World (and possible X World games in general) do better than the older established game ruleset alternatives?

2. What, if anything, does Dungeon World offer to the experienced but open-minded TSR D&D-head?

(I own DW, but haven't played. Have played AW and Monsterhearts, so that's my perspective for comment)

Right, I tried to be brief but it seems this has turned out a bit long. Sorry about that.

1. Most things *World just does differently. The list of things it does better is very short. The playbooks are very good -- you can pretty much grok the entire system just from your character sheet. That makes it easy to introduce people to and also to run it with few props (works well over G+ for ex). It's parcelled well for players and also has some useful tools for the GM to organise the game.

Some people cite the way the moves force you to commit to certain actions is good and useful. I can take or leave that, though I like the principle.

Butbutbut... *World's innovations are different approaches to solving problems we already know how to solve. I like the moves, and I like the fronts. I like the approach of player tries something, and if they succeed they get what they want, and if they fail the MC takes a move against them. I see a lot of AW as a combination of brainstorming tools and aide memoir for the GM. But it's hardly an epiphany, it's just another game.

The only thing you must do with this game is you have to go all in, and play it as written. This is not our default behaviour. It's not that we wilfully ignore rules in other games, it's more that we feel in control of the game when we have the flexibility to use our judgement to overrule something that doesn't make sense. The AW way is to run the rule and then interpret the results and go from there. In practice it's probably not so different from what we all do, but it sure feels strange.

I don't think AW is well written, the author makes a lot of assumptions that the reader is going through the same cognitive leaps he is going through. To run AW and grok the rulebook you have to have either learned by doing, or approach the text from a designer viewpoint to work out what Baker is trying to achieve. I don't know if it's intentional, that there's meant to be this oral tradition of graduating from player to GM through (a) learning by playing and (b) adopting the group mindset. Probably not. More likely it's just that AW isn't reader-friendly.

All the stuff about sex moves etc. is just silly fluff, and safely ignored. The idea that it's some kind of remedial ruleset to fix bad GMing is a myth perpetuated by fanboys and haters alike. When we played there was no shared creative authority bollocks, we all spoke in the first person and we had a relationship with the GM, just like any other game.

2. I have no idea what it would offer to a hardcore D&D fan, since I prefer minimalist games myself. *World is just another game, and it offers as much depth as any other game. The things it won't offer are long spell lists and combat options, but I can do without those anyway. It does kind of focus characters into the actions they take.

So, I'm not sure what it would offer you other than a different style of game to try. Like I said it I consider it interesting for brainstorming and organising the game in a particular way.

Quote from: Snowman0147;726203Which is why I got political, but back to the topic at hand.

It just every time I look at dungeon world if felt like we did this before.  It felt like dnd which I know that is the point, but we have OSR books.  What does dungeon world do to make itself different?  Other than a different system not much.  It is a generic game that requires a GM to create a setting for people to play in.  Which yet again OSR games pretty much did that any way.  So you have a game trying to be dnd when their are other games that had done that already.

It offers an explicit, baked-into-the-rules way to i) have a 'mitigated success' reliably and ii) let players say 'This is in the world because I say so.'

i) is mildly amusing, ii) I find rather annoying.

Quote from: The Butcher;726348Honest, snark-free questions.

1. What do you feel Dungeon World (and possible X World games in general) do better than the older established game ruleset alternatives?

Nothing that I personally value.  I explicitly hate the "the PCs are the most important persons in the world" vibe*, and I explicitly dislike the "The PCs are by the rules allowed to declare that some things in the game world simply ARE."

Quote from: The Butcher;7263482. What, if anything, does Dungeon World offer to the experienced but open-minded TSR D&D-head?

I really like the explicit description and definition of "Defy Danger."  I've been using it since 1972, but I'm going to lift the verbal description from DW and give it to people to read.


*which is different from "the PCs are the most important people in the GAME."

Quote from: Veilheim;725963Okay, look.  I like Dungeon World.  I do.  I really think it's a fun game with some great approaches.  I love that its very hackable and you can do a ton with it pretty easily.  I enjoy running it, I like playing it...  To me, it's a great little system.  

BUT OH MY FUCKING GOD, the community surrounding DW (particularly on G+) is full of absolutely insufferable Gen-Y'ers who are convinced they and they alone can define what good right fun and bad wrong fun are.  I watched it happen again tonight.  But, of course, were I to call it Hipster World, the RPG, I'd be tarred and feathered over there.

So, instead, I just came to the "safe" game place on the internet where it's okay to say less than completely PC comments to get it off my fucking chest.  

Thanks.

You're welcome.

Quote from: Simlasa;725988I was feeling kinda similar about the Dungeon Crawl Classics fans lately. Not that they're hipsters but that there is little tolerance for criticism/naysaying... a bit too much hero worship of Goodman, Bishop and Stroh. It's kinda culty.
Still, I love the game (what little I've gotten to play of it) so I'm just gonna stay off of G+.

Apples and oranges, I think.  Maybe you can show me pretentious posts by DCC fans claiming that its a work of intellectual genius, re-defines roleplaying, corrects the glaring errors of D&D, is better for running everything fantasy than any other rpg, is more sophisticated than the games the proles play, etc. etc. ad nauseum, but I just haven't seen that from the DCCers (only crazy enthusiasm, that much I grant).  On the other hand, I've seen all of the above from DW swine-evangelists.

Quote from: RPGPundit;727300Apples and oranges, I think.  Maybe you can show me pretentious posts by DCC fans claiming that its a work of intellectual genius, re-defines roleplaying, corrects the glaring errors of D&D, is better for running everything fantasy than any other rpg, is more sophisticated than the games the proles play, etc. etc. ad nauseum, but I just haven't seen that from the DCCers (only crazy enthusiasm, that much I grant).  On the other hand, I've seen all of the above from DW swine-evangelists.

Don't forget "The promise of D&D has finally been fulfilled." which is used for both Dungeon World and 13th Age.

Could be worse. They could be FATE fans. My God, if I never hear that game recommended for every goddamn genre, setting, or IP in the fucking world again, it'll still be too soon.

Quote from: RPGPundit;727300Apples and oranges, I think...

Sure, I've not seen the DCC fans being pretentious. I was only speaking to the feeling of liking a game and yet being somewhat turned off by the fans of that game on G+ and elsewhere. I'm not big on the manic enthusiasm and applause for EVERYTHING that comes out for the game... every supplement, the fugly kickstarter dice, the DCC Underoos... all of it. It reminds me of some poetry readings I've been to where every reader gets wild applause no matter how crap his poem about his grandmother's cat was.
Compare that to the BRPCentral site where I sometimes wonder if folks there even like the system that forum focuses on.

Nothing beats the Fate fans though... from what I hear if I buy into that system it will get up in the morning, make me a pot of coffee and a waffle and give me a handjob while it reads me the morning news.