Quote from: Eirikrautha on April 20, 2024, 08:52:12 PM

Quote from: Cipher on April 20, 2024, 03:49:26 PMI don't like PbtA, but I've seen in this thread a lot of folks saying that "storygames" are not RPGs. In order for us not to fall into true Scotmanship, what would you define as "rpg stuff" and how is that different than "storygames"?

I repeat, I don't like PbtA, which is supposedly the poster boy for "narrative" games or whatever other fluff term is used. I am not defending PbtA or "storygames" I just want to understand what this forum means when they use the term.

Well, I think there are two different ways you can look at it, at least from my point of view of the generally opposition to storygames:

First, a main criticism might be that storygames privilege the construction of a simultaneous narrative over every other part of the game.  In D&D, no matter which edition, the attempt is made to create a coherent, cohesive setting within which the players' characters interact.  Narrative might flow from the game (we might tell stories about what happened later), but each player is playing their character as an inhabitant of the setting reacting to the in-world fiction as if it was real.  It doesn't matter the genre, the amount of "railroading," the inclusion of gonzo elements, or the way that fluff doesn't quite match up to the crunch, the primary motivating factor of decisions within the game occur based on in-setting concerns.  Now, this is not to say that most (or even any) games live up to this ideal completely, but that's the general thrust of the criticism.  Storygames are creating a story first.  The in-setting conceits are useful only as far as they help create the shared narrative.  They can be manipulated, changed, or even jettisoned whenever the shared narrative would benefit from it.  RPGs do not have to be true (or even mostly) simulations, but they are directed towards responding to what is happening in the setting, not building the setting as another tool to create story.

Secondly, many criticisms of storygames highlight that the mechanics of the games provide mechanics designed to empower players to change or control the events of the game based on meta concerns.  A traditional RPG has a single person (usually the DM) in charge of construction of the setting, as well as moderating the players' interaction with it.  The mechanics depend on independent adjudication based on the in-setting probability of success, not the effect of the outcome on a simultaneous story.  So, you can spot storygame mechanics because they give players tools to shape the outcome of the game to create outcomes desirable for some meta view of the game, as opposed to outcomes that are based in setting conceits.  This is why I don't agree that things like luck points, bennies, or other meta-currency are indicative of storygame tendencies.  These metacurrencies are still directed at player character level outcomes (did I get hit?, did I die?, etc.) as opposed to mechanics like jhkim described in Cthulhu Dark, where other players can roll against you to get the outcome they think is dramatic or "better" for the story.  There is no "in-setting" rationale for a mechanic like that.

So, in short, a storygame is a game that emphasizes the conscious construction of a narrative over the presentation of a coherent and consistent setting and its realities, with mechanics that don't represent in-setting concerns and move control of the setting and events away from the DM and towards construction of a shared, simultaneous narrative.

Quote from: SHARK on April 17, 2024, 10:09:25 PM

Quote from: Domina on April 17, 2024, 06:55:32 PMdamn that's a hell of a lot of words to say you're mad that other people's preferences aren't the same as yours

Greetings!

This directed at me?

Tell you what, it isn't about "you're being mad that other people's preferences aren't the same as yours." That is frankly, a gross oversimplification, and at the end of the day, missing the larger issue.

If the rainbow degenerates kept their mouth shut, and did their weird fucking games by themselves, that wouldn't be the problem. The problem comes when all of this weak, pussy degenerate BS is then adopted and embraced by others, who then start pumping it into books and adventures that normal people then are faced with, again, and again, and again. That degeneracy starts to corrupt the entire hobby.

If YOU like that BS, great! Knock yourself out, and dive into the cesspool deep!

Many other gamers in the hobby are sick of it, and such corrupting trends pushed by degenerate storygames does nothing but harm the hobby.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Eirikrautha on April 17, 2024, 10:21:26 PMCheck its posting history.  It's a troll (and not a particularly intelligent or entertaining one).  Just roll your eyes and move on to someone with a semblance of a coherent thought... **roll eyes**

Quote from: Domina on April 23, 2024, 06:00:20 PMIn what way does it harm the hobby?
Why is storygaming bad?

Quote from: NotFromAroundHere on Today at 03:05:31 AM

Quote from: Domina on April 23, 2024, 06:00:20 PMIn what way does it harm the hobby?
Why is storygaming bad?

If only someone at the start of the thread had posted something like, I don't know, a video answering these exact questions....

Quote from: Domina on April 23, 2024, 06:00:20 PMSo no answer then.