Looking at games like Savage Worlds, Risus, and Warbirds (trying to create a system of my own...), I realized something...
I really think I prefer RPGs that give you a lot of options in character design, but the game rules THEMSELVES are relatively simple.

Savage Worlds - I like the variety of character options, but the rules themselves seem to be a bit clunky and over-complicated for my tastes (ironic, since SW is billed as Fast! Furious! Fun!, and it really does seem less complex than a lot of other games I have looked at / played)
Risus- Too far the other way.  The game rules are really simple, but there aren't a whole lot of character creation options (just X dice in a Cliché).
Warbirds - This one seems to be almost right in my wheelhouse, the best of both worlds - a good bit of character options (and customizing your plane options), but the rules are not overly complex.

Any other games you guys think may fit the bill?  The D&D5e rules look promising - haven't played, but what I have read of the players' handbook is good.

Apocalypse World and PbtA games in general?

GURPS... a very simple game at its core, but with front-loaded details in its chargen.

The core trunk of D&D 5e rules are pretty simple. But a lot of the specifics are exception-based-rules (such as the spells). Whether it fits your needs... I think you'd have to try some experimenting. Fortunately, the base rules are free.

I would suggest Hero System- there is lots of picking of character options, but the actual resolution mechanic is pretty straightforward. There are some abilities (variable power pools) which basically give you the option of doing a character creation activity mid-turn in combat to use a power in interesting ways which I would suggest banning or requiring only-premade-abilities. Otherwise, it works quite well.

Quote from: Redforce;1008621Looking at games like Savage Worlds, Risus, and Warbirds (trying to create a system of my own...), I realized something...
I really think I prefer RPGs that give you a lot of options in character design, but the game rules THEMSELVES are relatively simple.

I think you'd love Kuro:D!

That's an awesome observation. I've always thought that I liked simple RPG's but you may be right about the character generation -- it can be complex as long as the game is simple from the perspective of the DM screen.

Hero system seems to me to fit what you are looking for. Lots of options at character generation, tools to build and define everything in your game world, but the actual play mechanics are smooth and straightforward.

part of why Savage Worlds is "Fun! Fast! and Furious!" is that it was originally a hack of the Great Train Wars system (the miniatures game for Deadlands) into a oneshot that was going to originally be run in the Deadlands system, so when compared to Deadlands, Savage Worlds IS simple.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1008638I would suggest Hero System- there is lots of picking of character options, but the actual resolution mechanic is pretty straightforward. There are some abilities (variable power pools) which basically give you the option of doing a character creation activity mid-turn in combat to use a power in interesting ways which I would suggest banning or requiring only-premade-abilities. Otherwise, it works quite well.

I played more Hero System (specifically Champions) than any other system.  That one goes in the 'too complicated rules' pile - I'm older and my attention span is shorter.

Quote from: remial;1008699part of why Savage Worlds is "Fun! Fast! and Furious!" is that it was originally a hack of the Great Train Wars system (the miniatures game for Deadlands) into a oneshot that was going to originally be run in the Deadlands system, so when compared to Deadlands, Savage Worlds IS simple.

I have the Deadlands 2nd edition books - boy howdy, your statement sure is true...

Quote from: Simlasa;1008630GURPS... a very simple game at its core, but with front-loaded details in its chargen.

Heh.  I used to own GURPS 3e.  GURPS may be TOO front-loaded for chargen.  It looks like a pretty solid system, though.  Chargen is less math intensive than Hero, so there is that, too.

What about something like Barbarians of Lemuria: Mythic Edition?  Characters have Attributes (Strength, etc.), Combat Abilities, Backgrounds (cultural/racial), Careers (broad skill packages), and Boons and Flaws (advantages and disadvantages).


The basic system is incredibly simple and flexible, with a core task roll somewhat reminiscent of Traveller (throw 2d6 + mods (Attribute, Career, etc.), meet or exceed target number for success.)  The default feel and setting of the game is Conan-esque pulp swords & sorcery, but IME it's easy enough to dial back certain elements (such as Rabble rules or Hero Points) when I want to run something grittier.  It's also easy to change or add Attributes (standard BoL has 4, I currently use 6), Combat Abilities, or any other character traits without significantly affecting play.

Quote from: Redforce;1008621Looking at games like Savage Worlds, Risus, and Warbirds (trying to create a system of my own...), I realized something...
I really think I prefer RPGs that give you a lot of options in character design, but the game rules THEMSELVES are relatively simple.

Savage Worlds - I like the variety of character options, but the rules themselves seem to be a bit clunky and over-complicated for my tastes (ironic, since SW is billed as Fast! Furious! Fun!, and it really does seem less complex than a lot of other games I have looked at / played)
Risus- Too far the other way.  The game rules are really simple, but there aren't a whole lot of character creation options (just X dice in a Cliché).
Warbirds - This one seems to be almost right in my wheelhouse, the best of both worlds - a good bit of character options (and customizing your plane options), but the rules are not overly complex.

Any other games you guys think may fit the bill?  The D&D5e rules look promising - haven't played, but what I have read of the players' handbook is good.

D&D 5e basic is pretty straightforward, but may not give you all the 'character design' stuff you'd like.

Quote from: nightlamp;1009134What about something like Barbarians of Lemuria: Mythic Edition?  Characters have Attributes (Strength, etc.), Combat Abilities, Backgrounds (cultural/racial), Careers (broad skill packages), and Boons and Flaws (advantages and disadvantages).


The basic system is incredibly simple and flexible, with a core task roll somewhat reminiscent of Traveller (throw 2d6 + mods (Attribute, Career, etc.), meet or exceed target number for success.)  The default feel and setting of the game is Conan-esque pulp swords & sorcery, but IME it's easy enough to dial back certain elements (such as Rabble rules or Hero Points) when I want to run something grittier.  It's also easy to change or add Attributes (standard BoL has 4, I currently use 6), Combat Abilities, or any other character traits without significantly affecting play.

Depending on whether the OP believes it has enough "front-loaded" crunch, I guess:).
But yes, I like BoL as well;).

I'm pretty much in the OP's boat. My players love having tons of mechanical options for their characters, and I dislike complexity in play so we search for games that are both smooth in play with lots of character widgets. We haven't found the perfect combo yet.  

Some games like OD&D and BRP are really flexible because they are open ended. You don't need widgets.  As a GM, I like these games, but my players are uncomfortable with the lack of mechanical structure with which to mold their character concepts.  They'ed prefer feats, or adds/disads.  They want a book to flip through and say "oohh, maybe I could be that" and select form a large web of options rather than create from whole cloth.

SW was almost "it" for us as it has great, simple character development and options.  You can easily create just about anything you want and have strong mechanical reinforcement for it.  But, there is some real wonkyness in play that killed it for us. Heavily moded BoL has been a better option for a light game, and has WFRP has been excellent as a heavier one. GURPS is too heavy in both chargen and in play in my experience (though I might want to try dungeon GURPS or whatever it is).  The players like d20 ish games for their character options, but I don't like running them. Ovrall, we still haven't found the perfect solution of tons of character options and smooth simple play.