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Author Topic: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?  (Read 11884 times)

jeff37923

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #60 on: August 12, 2022, 06:35:19 PM »
the next time I see an allegation towards a man at a gaming convention, I really look forward to your concern and efforts to help reduce such things in the future.

Funny, I thought that was exactly the concern expresed in this thread, that a man tried to force himself on a woman. And the steps we consider GenCon should take to avoid this type of thing from happening at least among it's employees.

So this will prevent future assaults that happen outside of bedrooms? By cismen?

Magic! I didn't realize that there was such power in transwomen, that their presence in the bedroom of a ciswoman creates all of these negative ripples throughout society that it causes cismen to act abhorently.

I am obviously ill suited to a world where such things are possible. I'll stick to the observable universe, and y'all can deal with this magical one with weird sympathetical magical effects.

Hoshisabi, is GenCon paying you to troll this thread? Because you are being an asshat.

"Meh."

hoshisabi

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #61 on: August 12, 2022, 07:23:32 PM »
I did, twice. I know what I said and I understand tort law. But I am not debating it with you for two reasons.

First, you are not here in good faith so it is a waste of time. You dismiss an entire forum and community of people who are sons and fathers to women they would put their life on the line for…all in the name of gender identity and politics. You are a pathetic troll whose life is so empty you are left with being a canker around here.

It is funny that you said you read it, but you made claims that were not made by Dot. I'm going to lightly touch on this.

You said, specifically:
Quote
changed room arrangements or anything.

That is at odds with what Dot said had happened, when she specifically said that they gave her a different room to sleep in, once they were made aware, they fixed it.

Now, as far as their culpability, you're right, we cannot discuss that as I am not a lawyer, I can't tell you.

But I will tell you, for claiming that I am a troll and dismissing your claims, I am not. I would dismiss your claims by walking away. If I was trolling, I would be making a bigger attempt to be funny, and I certainly wouldn't be editing my knee-jerk snarky responses out. Trolls are SPECIFICALLY out for the snark.

As for sincerity, yes, I do believe that trans women are not statistically more likely than others to be attackers, but it's kind of irrelevant at this point. I could give a number of stats and try and make that argument, but I haven't and won't try.  (And if it seems like I have, I apologize. I know better, it's not going to convince anyone so... I'll try and avoid it.)

I am also not claiming that folks here wouldn't defend a woman who was attacked. So, I'd ask you to extend me that courtesy. I've made it a point to say several times that Dot was attacked, Daisy was the attacker, that Daisy needs to apologize, seek treatment for substance abuse, and make amends to her victims... Somehow.

Dot and the other victims know best what outcome they want, and just as we can accept BJ Hensley and Frog God coming to an agreement privately, I personally can accept that perhaps Dot and others will come to some agreement with Gencon and Daisy. Given that Dot thanked GenCon for how they handled the situation, I suspect she's pleased with at least THAT part of the outcome. It'll remain to see what happens to Daisy.  (and as you saw, I agreed with another poster, lets check back in a number of months and see if it gets quietly forgotten, just as some past cis-male abusers have ducked out for a few months and then returned as if nothing had ever happened.)

But, it's only been days. We will need to wait and see.

(though, as an aside, there's this "broken step" analogy. Even when a community is aware of a person who is an issue, and even when they inform newcomers about it, it's like a broken step in a staircase into the dark basement. By not just taking care of the problem, it's just making a future problem an inevitability. So it's not just about the victims having amends made to them, it's also about protecting the community from known attackers.)

And I did make a point to say that if this is such a hot topic for the community, I'll be looking for folks to speak up when it happens again in the more statistically likely situations where its a cismale as the attacker. Sincerely, if this community makes a point to make sure that attackers face consequences, then that's only a good thing.

I do know I am responsible for my own community and making sure that it's safe for everyone. I know it's a difficult position. I hate that part of the role because no matter what, you're being called into a bad situation and it sucks. So I actually have a huge amount of sympathy for those individuals who make mistakes in this. I know I've made mistakes when trying to deal with it. (one where my co-chair and I disagreed about the severity of a physical threat, and I trust his judgement, so we went with his call on that... it's possible for two well-meaning people to disagree, and obviously it's possible for a person to accept that another person's viewpoint might have more merit in the end.)

So I am here to say, if this is a legit possibility that a number of folks will actually be speaking up about the safety of women in shared spaces in our community, then excellent. With all sincerity, that is the best outcome I could hope for.  But if this is just a case for folks to preach to their own choirs about their opinions about trans women, perhaps leave Dot out of it, because I am sure that she isn't interested in being the poster child for that cause.

Quote
Second, you’re already walking the green mile. Pundit specifically said this was not a thread to discuss sexual assault hypocrisy and you had done so several times. I generally find him a man of his word so I’m not sure you’ll be around. Regardless, reason one is enough.

I am not "walking the green mile" and have stayed in the bounds of the topic as stated by man himself:
Quote
Only warning: stay within the topic; this is about misconduct at Gencon, or within the gaming hobby. Not a general thread about leftist sexual assault hypocrisy, or anything else.

I am discussing misconduct at GenCon, as well as within the gaming hobby. I am not discussing gaming in general, sexual misconduct in general, or leftist sexual assault hypocrisy.

But, once again, just saying "If this is a genuine interest in ensuring the safety of women" then fine, that's excellent.  But without asking Dot directly, and given what she has said in the past, I don't think she's interested in helping you advocate for trans-exclusionary spaces.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2022, 07:31:13 PM by hoshisabi »

hoshisabi

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #62 on: August 12, 2022, 07:36:29 PM »
Hoshisabi, is GenCon paying you to troll this thread? Because you are being an asshat.

That was me being an asshat to Geekybugle, and I really shouldn't have. You're right, and I am sorry.

He levelled a bit of snark, and then made it seem like I was coming out of nowhere, when he was the one who missed the context of what he was replying to.

I could have said that, instead of returning snark, since it doesn't help make the point any better.

As far as GenCon, nah... I haven't been to it for a few years, and the only person I represent is myself.

hoshisabi

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2022, 07:47:14 PM »
Canceled nothing, someone trying to drag women into their room deserves to be tazed by the cops and dragged down a flight of stairs on the way to the car, feet-first.  Which is exactly what this person deserves too, but has no indication of actually happening to him.  We'll see how it pans out, but none of the accounts mention the victims looking to any

Oh man, that story was kind of a nightmare situation.  I'd look it up to get more details, but I'm worried that I also have combined or mixed different incidents, because that's the issue. There's just been so many nightmarish situations.

Hell, one of my friends let me know about a different one of my (former) friends assaulting her at a convention and... You think, "What the hell? I've known that dude for years, I would have never suspected him of doing something like that."  (and then afterwards, other folks started to tell me other stories and it just blows your mind.)

But... hell, you find out and you do something about it then.

S'mon

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2022, 02:02:04 AM »
Just checked ENW - I could not find a thread about this, though there is one about number of visitors at Gencon, whereas sexual harrassment that fits The Narrative, like Bill Webb's behaviour, always gets tons of attention. I think the Woke are an awful lot more hypocritical than the non-Woke.

S'mon

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2022, 02:04:18 AM »
Oh man, that story was kind of a nightmare situation.  I'd look it up to get more details, but I'm worried that I also have combined or mixed different incidents, because that's the issue.

You don't want to look it up in case you were wrong about it?  ??? I think you should look it up. I also think you should stop with the Whataboutism unless you have some actual evidence of disparity, which doesn't seem to be the case.

Rob Necronomicon

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2022, 07:38:31 AM »
What is it with these fucking wankers? Have they not a lick of self-control??

Just keep your hands off other people and being drunk is no excuse.





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Cathode Ray

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #67 on: August 13, 2022, 09:33:52 AM »
posted  in wrong thread
Creator of Radical High, a 1980s RPG.
DM/PM me if you're interested.

FingerRod

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #68 on: August 13, 2022, 10:17:16 AM »
I did, twice. I know what I said and I understand tort law. But I am not debating it with you for two reasons.

First, you are not here in good faith so it is a waste of time. You dismiss an entire forum and community of people who are sons and fathers to women they would put their life on the line for…all in the name of gender identity and politics. You are a pathetic troll whose life is so empty you are left with being a canker around here.
It is funny that you said you read it, but you made claims that were not made by Dot. I'm going to lightly touch on this.

You said, specifically:
Quote
changed room arrangements or anything.
No, I didn’t say that. I never said anything about room arrangements. I was responding to real members of this community and you decided to insert yourself into it, attributing the wrong quote to me in the process.

And Pundit very clearly said that talking about hypocracy was off-topic for this thread. Here are three times, from different posts, you claimed the site was being hypocritical:

Quote from: hoshisabi

But there's so many of these assaults that happen where everyone involved is cisgender, and the folks claiming that the "blue check mob" are providing cover for the abuser in this situation act in EXACTLY the same fashion that they're acting now.

Everyone is providing support for the victim and calling out the attacker. Just as they've done before, and they will do next time.

It's this forum that's acting differently. I don't tend to see a post about things like any number of past incidents where some loutish dude gets drunk and gropes a woman in an elevator or a bar, or tries to pull a woman into their hotel room, or have a room that they call "the Cosby Room", or ... Well, you get the picture. It happens a lot.
Quote from: hoshisabi

I'm saying I'd be glad for you to search through this forum's posts and show me this forum's IMMENSE CONCERN for the safety of women. I would imagine since you and I both agree that this is a problem in past conventions that either I will see a TON of posts about these past incidents.

Or this particular incident is unusual because there is a transwoman as the attacker.

But, perhaps it's not me that is being disingenuous.

Perhaps many only show concern about women in situations like this, where it involves criticism of a transwoman, then perhaps it's better to just leave women out of it. Just make a thread about what you're actually concerned about.
Quote from: hoshisabi
I mean, I see a lot of these threads in other forums when they happen, I just don't think I see them in THIS forum when they happen.

Are y'all just SUDDENLY becoming interested in making sure our conventions are a safe environment for women? Because, I've really seen a lot of criticism for conventions going woke when they start writing up codes of conduct talking about making shared spaces safe.

If that's the case, then good on y'all, I'm looking forward to seeing you calling for consequences for the next dude that pulls a woman in for a kiss that she wants, or dragging them into their hotel room, or drugging them or ...

I mean, Blizzard is being investigated for these things. Let's check to see what you guys had to say about the allegations that came out about Blizzard having a "Cosby Room" and trying to get women drunk to lower their inhibitions so they could drag them to that room.

You are not really a part of the community, and I suspect you are likely a pretty lonely person. You would have to be to lurk around waiting to wage battles, with people you don’t like or otherwise interact with on a regular basis, over a list and now the alleged assault at GenCon. Whether Pundit sticks to his guns or not, whether you stay around under your bridge to pop up for your faux gottcha moments or not, there is zero value in having a conversation with you.

DocJones

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #69 on: August 13, 2022, 11:06:49 AM »
Quote
I want to give a shout-out to my Stream Team lead for stepping up to help me out and feel safe. They even went as far as to let me off my Sunday shift early, so Daisy and I didn’t have to share a workspace after what happened on Saturday night. Please know that GenCon is currently accepting ANY and ALL incident reports from the week. You can submit those to policyteam@gencon.com. I hope these complaints prompt GenCon to take the actions necessary to bring some closure to those hurt.

So, I would say that this isn't a case where she is unhappy with GenCon.
I will note from this quote that "Daisy" was apparently not kicked out of the GenCon convention if he was allowed to participate on Sunday.
That flies in the face of how GenCon treats accusations of misconduct against straight white men, in which GenCon immediately escorts them out of the convention and releases public statements deploring their behavior.



hoshisabi

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #70 on: August 13, 2022, 11:28:37 AM »
Just checked ENW - I could not find a thread about this, though there is one about number of visitors at Gencon, whereas sexual harrassment that fits The Narrative, like Bill Webb's behaviour, always gets tons of attention. I think the Woke are an awful lot more hypocritical than the non-Woke.

Check the replies on Twitter where Dot posted it. Not sure why there's nothing on Enworld, unless it's because generally they accept that "what should have happened, did happen." But this gets closer to the edge of offtopic.  (Though I imagine this is still permitted, since we are still talking about it in context of gaming conventions.)

No, I didn’t say that. I never said anything about room arrangements. I was responding to real members of this community and you decided to insert yourself into it, attributing the wrong quote to me in the process.

Crap, I did. That's my mistake, I apologize. I get lost in trying to juggle multiple replies and I screwed that one up entirely, I quoted the part of the message that you were quoting yourself.  You're right, your statement was entirely clear, "Gencon may share some culpability" basically. And I didn't intend to argue that, just the part you quoted.

And Pundit very clearly said that talking about hypocracy was off-topic for this thread. Here are three times, from different posts, you claimed the site was being hypocritical:

I've been here a while, I'm pretty sure I'm fine. If RPG Pundit tells me otherwise, I'll accept it.  And I've read his other thread ABOUT these sort of arguments, and one of the things that he's said is that arguments like mine are not reportable/offtopic.

But he specifically said general "liberal hypocrisy." I am certainly not doing that, I am discussing this instance in comparison to other incidents at gaming conventions. We don't need to go too meta, after a few levels it BECOMES off-topic, so let's just agree that RPG Pundit can make the call, and I'll accept the judgement. Mostly, though, I've made the point I wanted to make, and I don't need to repeat it beyond that very much. But in the meantime, I'm pretty comfortable with what I've said.

(Check Pundit's thread "GENERAL WARNING: OFF-TOPIC Political Posts on this Subforum")

Whether Pundit sticks to his guns or not, whether you stay around under your bridge to pop up for your faux gottcha moments or not, there is zero value in having a conversation with you.

And as a note: this is veering DANGEROUSLY close to that line, so I'd just ... Eh, do not taunt the moderators, let's just say. Just as a bit of advice for the future.

Quote from: hoshisabi
You are not really a part of the community, and I suspect you are likely a pretty lonely person. You would have to be to lurk around waiting to wage battles, with people you don’t like or otherwise interact with on a regular basis, over a list and now the alleged assault at GenCon.

I appreciate your concern for me, but I'm perfectly content. I tool about on the internet arguing with people who have very different opinions than me, sometimes to understand them, sometimes to see if they change their opinions. I've had points that I've learned, I've had points where others have in fact changed their opinions, and I've seen that this forum is definitely not a homogenous singular entity.

One thing I'd like to point out, though, is that it's a lot less hostile than you imagine it to be. "Don't like" is not true.

You might as well be half my gaming group or my family or any number of folks that I also regularly argue with. The difficulty is that you don't have a drink in front of you as we discuss, so you don't see the face of the other person. You don't see that they're presenting opinions and points, not tossing barbs at you.

with regards to the list: well, that's another thread, feel free to reply there where it's on-topic.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2022, 11:41:20 AM by hoshisabi »

SHARK

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #71 on: August 13, 2022, 11:35:27 AM »
I did, twice. I know what I said and I understand tort law. But I am not debating it with you for two reasons.

First, you are not here in good faith so it is a waste of time. You dismiss an entire forum and community of people who are sons and fathers to women they would put their life on the line for…all in the name of gender identity and politics. You are a pathetic troll whose life is so empty you are left with being a canker around here.
It is funny that you said you read it, but you made claims that were not made by Dot. I'm going to lightly touch on this.

You said, specifically:
Quote
changed room arrangements or anything.
No, I didn’t say that. I never said anything about room arrangements. I was responding to real members of this community and you decided to insert yourself into it, attributing the wrong quote to me in the process.

And Pundit very clearly said that talking about hypocracy was off-topic for this thread. Here are three times, from different posts, you claimed the site was being hypocritical:

Quote from: hoshisabi

But there's so many of these assaults that happen where everyone involved is cisgender, and the folks claiming that the "blue check mob" are providing cover for the abuser in this situation act in EXACTLY the same fashion that they're acting now.

Everyone is providing support for the victim and calling out the attacker. Just as they've done before, and they will do next time.

It's this forum that's acting differently. I don't tend to see a post about things like any number of past incidents where some loutish dude gets drunk and gropes a woman in an elevator or a bar, or tries to pull a woman into their hotel room, or have a room that they call "the Cosby Room", or ... Well, you get the picture. It happens a lot.
Quote from: hoshisabi

I'm saying I'd be glad for you to search through this forum's posts and show me this forum's IMMENSE CONCERN for the safety of women. I would imagine since you and I both agree that this is a problem in past conventions that either I will see a TON of posts about these past incidents.

Or this particular incident is unusual because there is a transwoman as the attacker.

But, perhaps it's not me that is being disingenuous.

Perhaps many only show concern about women in situations like this, where it involves criticism of a transwoman, then perhaps it's better to just leave women out of it. Just make a thread about what you're actually concerned about.
Quote from: hoshisabi
I mean, I see a lot of these threads in other forums when they happen, I just don't think I see them in THIS forum when they happen.

Are y'all just SUDDENLY becoming interested in making sure our conventions are a safe environment for women? Because, I've really seen a lot of criticism for conventions going woke when they start writing up codes of conduct talking about making shared spaces safe.

If that's the case, then good on y'all, I'm looking forward to seeing you calling for consequences for the next dude that pulls a woman in for a kiss that she wants, or dragging them into their hotel room, or drugging them or ...

I mean, Blizzard is being investigated for these things. Let's check to see what you guys had to say about the allegations that came out about Blizzard having a "Cosby Room" and trying to get women drunk to lower their inhibitions so they could drag them to that room.

You are not really a part of the community, and I suspect you are likely a pretty lonely person. You would have to be to lurk around waiting to wage battles, with people you don’t like or otherwise interact with on a regular basis, over a list and now the alleged assault at GenCon. Whether Pundit sticks to his guns or not, whether you stay around under your bridge to pop up for your faux gottcha moments or not, there is zero value in having a conversation with you.

Greetings!

FingerRod whips out the set of Ginsu Knives and goes to work!

Sharp analysis, my friend. I have wondered what the hell Hoshisabi is even trying to argue.

This seems to be a very clear case of a man sexually harassing a woman, perhaps even sexual assault. He acted horribly towards this woman. As DocJones keenly observed, as per Gen Con's usual response to incidents such as this, why didn't Gen Con immediately ban him from the convention, and release a public statement about how deplorable and terrible the man is?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

hoshisabi

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #72 on: August 13, 2022, 11:36:12 AM »
You don't want to look it up in case you were wrong about it?  ??? I think you should look it up. I also think you should stop with the Whataboutism unless you have some actual evidence of disparity, which doesn't seem to be the case.

Nah, more because it's one of those things where you do a search and you find so many entries that you then have to pick through to figure out if you got the right incident.

And that one incident wasn't a particularly crucial case to any arguments I made. The idea of "sexual assault happened at a gaming convention" isn't something I need to prove to any of you. Hell, I have literally talked to a victim of a local convention and know the person who made the assault.

But if I were to do a search with just those details, I'll get a ton of incidents, then you send up spending an hour or so reading about sexual assaults on a Friday evening and ... Gah, nah, it's just unpleasant and I'd rather not.  ( I did a search earlier on that other incident, and the just the first page turned up four other incidents, and I didn't get my actual intended result until the second, so I anticipate this one will be the same. )

If someone recalls the incident and points out "Nah, that specific incident happened at a tech conference" or "It wasn't a bystander" or whatever, I'll accept it. Because nah, I just ... nah, do not want to start reading up about a bunch of incidents again. Too many bad incidents in the past.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2022, 11:39:18 AM by hoshisabi »

Mistwell

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #73 on: August 13, 2022, 12:00:42 PM »
Can anyone find the past threads here of similar claims made against a semi-D&D-celebrities at GenCon, PaizoCon, Dragonsfoot, GaryCon, etc.?

This one is about Bill Webb.

This one about Frank Mentzer

People keep claiming that the reactions of folks here depends on whether the perpetrator of the harassment is male, or trans female. I think it's fair then to compare what people said before in similar circumstances about these kinds of events at gaming conventions before. The circumstances of course will differ but some broad statements are likely comparable.

My recollection, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that people here often had little sympathy for Frank Mentzer.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2022, 12:05:49 PM by Mistwell »

hoshisabi

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #74 on: August 13, 2022, 12:18:15 PM »
Can anyone find the past threads here of similar claims made against a semi-D&D-celebrities at GenCon, PaizoCon, Dragonsfoot, GaryCon, etc.?

Thanks, I'll have to read through them.

People keep claiming that the reactions of folks here depends on whether the perpetrator of the harassment is male, or trans female. I think it's fair then to compare what people said before in similar circumstances about these kinds of events at gaming conventions before. The circumstances of course will differ but some broad statements are likely comparable.

My recollection, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that people here often had little sympathy for Frank Mentzer.

"People" is usually just me. I'm a contrarian occasionally, but a harmless one.

If that's true, if folks speak out consistently, then excellent. Honestly, my judgement isn't worth a thing, so if folks are defending victims then good, that's all we need, right?

And as far as Mentzer. Those stories were so disappointing, dude wrote THE BOOK that I carried around with me as a kid.