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Author Topic: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?  (Read 11886 times)

GeekyBugle

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2022, 12:44:59 PM »

Because working together REQUIRES you to share a room...

As for the rest of your drivel it's not relevant to the thread (except maybe the vague reference to a teary eyed guy but you would need to clarify who, where, when so we can talk about it), and what your mind reading powers tell you of me are even less relevant, here and anywhere.

Working together doesn't require it, they both were coming together for the event after working together in the past.

I've shared a room with three other men when I've gone to GenCon, I hadn't met them. If men are so rampantly abusive, and I'm sure you are aware of the fact that some men are attracted to other men, what is it about housing them with me that would have protected me from assault? Obviously this is a bit of a hyperbolic example, but it's just ...

It's just that this particular incident, you're criticizing GenCon for housing people together when they didn't have an issue with it, the abuser and victim weren't forcibly placed together out of the blue, they knew ahead of time and were in communication beforehand.

And when the incident happened, everything happened as expected. Let's save some outrage for the times where it isn't handled correctly.

As far as the "teary eyed guy" I can type "apologizes for sexual assault at gaming convention" and see at least four separate incidents that are STILL not the one I was suggesting, but it's such a common thing that ... Well, let's just say I wouldn't expect you guys to speak up for them. Heck, I even saw a brand new one I didn't know. (Weather Factory, the dude that makes the game Cultist Simulator had a few people speak out, which ... disappointing.)

But anyhow, I had several folks in mind, but the one that is most clear is the following, and since the apology is still available online, and at least Mr. Webb admitted to this much:
https://www.froggodgames.com/statement-by-bill-webb/#:~:text=Bill%20Webb%20here.,principals%20of%20Frog%20God%20Games.

While the details between multiple accounts don't entirely match up, the fact is that SOMETHING happened for which he apologized, then his company at least made sure to acknowledge the complaints, they've left the apology up all this time later, but otherwise... Everything is back to normal. They didn't face any other long term consequences.

And even despite my reputation amongst y'all for SJWness, I still buy Frog God Games books. I can accept that a CEO might be flawed, even a really flawed dude, but otherwise, at least they did what they did. So I'm not calling out for worse consequences from ya'll, I'm just saying "I really didn't think that this NEW incident would be this noteworthy."

Abuser does abuse, victim seeks remediation, gets a new room, abuser faces consequences, victim is given support by the community.  So, good news at least.

So lets see, you're equating this:
Quote
I want to start by taking ownership of my own bad actions. On the day in question, I acted unprofessionally towards a colleague, BJ Hensley. I was overly familiar with Ms. Hensley and acted in a gender dismissive fashion. To be specific, I put my arm around her shoulders and called her “sweetie.” That behavior was and is not appropriate behavior towards a colleague and, unless one is very familiar with someone and has their consent to speak to them in that manner, that kind of conduct is never appropriate.

Unfortunately, that was not the end of it. While we were out for a cigarette, I offered her one by holding my cigarette pack out towards her so that she could take one. As was my habit, I had my room key in the sleeve of the cigarette pack so that I would not lose it.

I now can imagine how that must have looked. I had absolutely no intention of giving the impression that I was propositioning Ms. Hensley. In fact, my wife and kids were present at the con and my wife would have responded very poorly to additional guests in our hotel room. However, that does not excuse my mistake. I can see that my actions with the cigarette pack could be taken as a pass. I am deeply sorry for making BJ uncomfortable.

With making not-so-covert sexual propositions, being rejected and then "getting drunk", getting in her bed and putting his body over her trapping her there.

Am I getting it right?

Fuck off, those two are not the same and you know it or are even more of a bufoon than I thought.

98% of men are heterosexual, not much risk in placing several men together, as proven by your other false equivalence.

So, your mind reading powers are non-existent, your equivalent case isn't remotelly the same... You're either a liar or a bufoon. I'm inclined for the former.
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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2022, 12:51:29 PM »
I never expected this site to become misandrist. Are y'all saying that only men are ever abusers, that this couldn't have happened if it were two ciswomen? Shame, you guys, men are not the only gender capable of abuse.

Or have you turned over a new leaf and want to speak out about protecting victims and ensuring consequences for abusers?

I mean, in the past we've seen unwanted physical contact by a dude in a the bar/restaurant of the hotel hosting a convention get forgiven with a simple teary "I messed up, I had too much to drink." Those folks end up on a list of publishers as "green" because, y'know, they are a-ok.

So, here, we also have a person who had too much to drink, and after the incident, the victim got a new room and the abuser is ... Well, pretty much cancelled. For a person making their living online, complete erasure from all social media is pretty much the end of a career.

If that's "not enough" then I'm looking forward to this new leaf you've turned around, where you'll be huge advocates for the women speaking out against unwanted physical contact.

(and as far as how they ended up in a room together, read the tweets you posted. They were collaborating, and had been working together online for some time, and had arranged to work together at GenCon. This was not GenCon that placed them together. I'm pretty sure that were the abuser a ciswoman, you guys wouldn't have said a peep, and the victim and everyone else involved would have felt the same, so I suspect you're inserting yourself for a reason that no one else brought up, and no one else felt was a factor.)

It's great that you feel you've got a real gotcha on your hands here, however we aren't talking a person who propositioned another adult, or touched a woman's arm and made her feel unconformable. This guy attacked multiple women, according to one he grabbed her and wrestled her head around to try to kiss her. It's unambiguous sexual assault with at least three victims known thus far:

https://twitter.com/RekItRaven/status/1557384295194533889
https://twitter.com/little_red_dot/status/1557466678161727489
https://twitter.com/Superdillin/status/1557394343811551232

So just maybe there isn't a double-standard in play between "asked a woman out in an elevator isn't a big deal" and "trying to wrestle women into making out in a bar in front of horrified onlookers is bad".

THE_Leopold

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2022, 12:58:55 PM »
[
But anyhow, I had several folks in mind, but the one that is most clear is the following, and since the apology is still available online, and at least Mr. Webb admitted to this much:
https://www.froggodgames.com/statement-by-bill-webb/#:~:text=Bill%20Webb%20here.,principals%20of%20Frog%20God%20Games.

While the details between multiple accounts don't entirely match up, the fact is that SOMETHING happened for which he apologized, then his company at least made sure to acknowledge the complaints, they've left the apology up all this time later, but otherwise... Everything is back to normal. They didn't face any other long term consequences.

And even despite my reputation amongst y'all for SJWness, I still buy Frog God Games books. I can accept that a CEO might be flawed, even a really flawed dude, but otherwise, at least they did what they did. So I'm not calling out for worse consequences from ya'll, I'm just saying "I really didn't think that this NEW incident would be this noteworthy."

Abuser does abuse, victim seeks remediation, gets a new room, abuser faces consequences, victim is given support by the community.  So, good news at least.

FGG was lambasted on Social Media for this incident.  Bill Webb had to walk around conventions with another employee just to make sure incidents if they did occur had a witness beside He said/She Said.   The company took a huge hit and it wasn't until both sides posted online that this was a matter they both wanted to put in the past and the blood hungry blue checkmarks went after their next target.

As for this event. Reopen this thread in 3months, 6months, and right before GenCon next year and not a damn thing will have been done.
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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2022, 12:59:35 PM »
With making not-so-covert sexual propositions, being rejected and then "getting drunk", getting in her bed and putting his body over her trapping her there.

Am I getting it right?

Fuck off, those two are not the same and you know it or are even more of a bufoon than I thought.

You did see how I said that the account given in the apology didn't match up with what witnesses claim to have happened, including the victim?

"Oops, how did my room key end up in that pack of cigarettes? I couldn't have possibly meant that, my wife is over there."

Do you really believe that the apology perfectly represented not just the truth, but more importantly, what the victim might have FELT was happening? 

Or we can talk about the fact that it had happened BEFORE, and folks like Jessica Price had spoken out against it. (Which, I know, many of you don't feel that she's a reliable source, but from what it was said, this is something that folks had talked about in the past.)

Finally, the statement that Bill Webb and his company made doesn't match with other statements, pretty simply:
https://archive.ph/QcJPY

98% of men are heterosexual, not much risk in placing several men together, as proven by your other false equivalence.

So, your mind reading powers are non-existent, your equivalent case isn't remotelly the same... You're either a liar or a bufoon. I'm inclined for the former.
Finally, as far as 99% of men are hetereosexual, I'd say an even larger number are not likely to commit sexual assault. Yet, sexual assault happens. It's a risk analysis thing. Hell, some men who are "heterosexual" commit sexual assault on other men. 

So, how do we limit it?  Perhaps we don't place people together in a room unless they agree to it beforehand. In this case, it most likely wouldn't have protected the victim, the two of them had agreed to it ahead of time.

What is the real solution? I just don't think that the specifics you guys have brought up are the right one.

THE_Leopold

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2022, 01:12:57 PM »

You did see how I said that the account given in the apology didn't match up with what witnesses claim to have happened, including the victim?

"Oops, how did my room key end up in that pack of cigarettes? I couldn't have possibly meant that, my wife is over there."

Do you really believe that the apology perfectly represented not just the truth, but more importantly, what the victim might have FELT was happening? 

Or we can talk about the fact that it had happened BEFORE, and folks like Jessica Price had spoken out against it. (Which, I know, many of you don't feel that

Unless you are smoker you wouldn't understand how you keep everything in the pack for ease of travel.  I've left ID's, credit cards, and lighter in the pack when traveling about. Keep everything together.

I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle of all 3 stories and I'm adult enough to know that since all 3 parties consider it a closed matter I accept the outcome.
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hoshisabi

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2022, 01:13:23 PM »
It's great that you feel you've got a real gotcha on your hands here, however we aren't talking a person who propositioned another adult, or touched a woman's arm and made her feel unconformable. This guy attacked multiple women, according to one he grabbed her and wrestled her head around to try to kiss her. It's unambiguous sexual assault with at least three victims known thus far:

https://twitter.com/RekItRaven/status/1557384295194533889
https://twitter.com/little_red_dot/status/1557466678161727489
https://twitter.com/Superdillin/status/1557394343811551232

So just maybe there isn't a double-standard in play between "asked a woman out in an elevator isn't a big deal" and "trying to wrestle women into making out in a bar in front of horrified onlookers is bad".

I don't think I have a real gotcha. I appreciate you finding these threads for me, I haven't started to do any sort of digging, but you've saved me a little bit of time in the search.

I am not making apologies for this abuser, what was done isn't up for debate. It happened, it was wrong, and I expect there to be longer term consequences. As someone said, "Let's check back in three months, six months, and a year."

Yep yep yep, most definitely.

FGG was lambasted on Social Media for this incident.  Bill Webb had to walk around conventions with another employee just to make sure incidents if they did occur had a witness beside He said/She Said.   The company took a huge hit and it wasn't until both sides posted online that this was a matter they both wanted to put in the past and the blood hungry blue checkmarks went after their next target.

As for this event. Reopen this thread in 3months, 6months, and right before GenCon next year and not a damn thing will have been done.

I agree totally. Let's check back, we will see if there's any outcome. But I'm willing to bet some amount of imaginary currency that more will happen in this case than did to FGG.

The story seems to have been that Mr. Webb had a history of drinking too much at conventions, and after several reported incidents, that one happened that made him apologize. He took a hit, but I don't think that FGG really did.  (And I want to make it clear, I've chatted with Mr. Webb, and he's a congenial dude, when he talks about his games it makes you wish you were at the table where it all happened. Alcohol makes some people into idiots, and I hope he's got a better grip on things now.)

But I will say, for it being "he said, she said."  Ms. Hensley wasn't the one who brought the incident to light. It was a third party who witnessed it... So it's beyond "He said, she said."  It was "He said, she said, and the people at the bar who decided to intervene." And in a lot of cases, the apology of a drunken incident is going to have less accurate details than the multiple bystanders who felt it was an issue enough to step in and stop it.

Do I expect them to suffer long term for it? Nah, I'm pretty sure Mr. Webb felt the shame, and I imagine it was very unpleasant for him, but the company navigated the waters through that incident (and managed to avoid any damage from past events) and ... That's about it. Done is done.

And as far as facing long term consequences from the "blue checkmark mob." Steve Jackson Games is listed on the "red red red" list in the other thread, and they were pressured to cut ties with FGG and they declined to do so. In fact, a lot of the anti-woke folks were cheering for SJG for standing up for FGG. So obviously, things were more complicated than the simple "woke/anti-woke" axis that often gets used to decide who to cheer for.

Finally, I think it's important to note that Frog God Games made a point to approach BJ Hensley and the statement was made WITH her. This isn't a case where Mr. Webb apologized and a side was picked... They did make a point to talk to the victim. So, I'm pretty sure that may be part of the reason it went smoothly as it had.

https://www.froggodgames.com/joint-statement-of-bj-hensley-and-frog-god-games/

hoshisabi

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2022, 01:18:25 PM »
Unless you are smoker you wouldn't understand how you keep everything in the pack for ease of travel.  I've left ID's, credit cards, and lighter in the pack when traveling about. Keep everything together.

I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle of all 3 stories and I'm adult enough to know that since all 3 parties consider it a closed matter I accept the outcome.

You're right, everyone did come to a mutually agreeable end. And like I said, I still buy FGG stuff. So, obviously it's not something I'm advocating for differently. I just feel that we may see a similar outcome here.

Daisy did say she is seeking treatment before she just outright deleted her Twitter. Dot may find that outcome agreeable. Dot had no problems with GenCon. So I'm hoping everything gets squared up and we'll see a similar end.  Y'know?

Oh and as far as the cigarette thing: My wife was a smoker, I know well enough how that goes.

But I also am a dude, as I think that you are:  You know well enough that you make pains to avoid the appearance of handing a room key to a woman, especially as a married man, as he pointed out.

A man who has a career that involves spending time in hotel bars would not be a stranger to the idea that this is ... A suspicious thing.  Heh.  If it wasn't something he was aware of before, he knows now.

THE_Leopold

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2022, 01:30:05 PM »

Finally, I think it's important to note that Frog God Games made a point to approach BJ Hensley and the statement was made WITH her. This isn't a case where Mr. Webb apologized and a side was picked... They did make a point to talk to the victim. So, I'm pretty sure that may be part of the reason it went smoothly as it had.

https://www.froggodgames.com/joint-statement-of-bj-hensley-and-frog-god-games/

Which is a point i made in my original post that all 3 parties (Bill, BJ, and FGG) agreed to put the issue to rest on her social media and FGG's website.

Who is suggesting otherwise? You are the one who brought up FGG as some sort of comparisson piece to the current GenCon issue but it could not be more different as there was actual physical internaction and the victim reporting on the event and not some 3rd party behind the scenes.


Also, since your wife is a smoker you understand how it "works". Shit happens, someone saw something, and without ever asking one side or the other it became an internet kefluffle.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2022, 01:31:38 PM by THE_Leopold »
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hoshisabi

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2022, 01:34:43 PM »
Which is a point i made in my original post that all 3 parties (Bill, BJ, and FGG) agreed to put the issue to rest on her social media and FGG's website.

Who is suggesting otherwise? You are the one who brought up FGG as some sort of comparisson piece to the current GenCon issue but it could not be more different as there was actual physical internaction and the victim reporting on the event and not some 3rd party behind the scenes.

In Frog God's case, the event took years to come to a resolution. If you look at the statement I posted, you'll see that they said "over the last two years."

In this case, the event just happened. The victim made a statement and is happy with her treatment by everyone other than the abuser. (She made a point to thank the coordinators that helped her in her post.)

The abuser posted that she screwed up, will seek therapy, and then removed her social media.

I am suggesting that, just as we did for Frog God Games, we permit the situation to come to a conclusion without making some larger statement about the hobby as a whole, or sexuality, or gender identity. (because, as we can easily see, it doesn't take a specific gender identity to be an abuser.)

We also see from another thread that perhaps Daisy has a history of issues. She needs treatment above and beyond just an apology being given. So, we'll see if that happens.

Also, since your wife is a smoker you understand how it "works". Shit happens, someone saw something, and without ever asking one side or the other it became an internet kefluffle.

I dunno, "how it works" involved a person regretting what they had done, and then having to apologize for it specifically. Like I said, if he didn't know that it might have been an issue before, he certainly does now.

Especially after putting his arms around a woman that didn't want it.

And ... like I also said, these are just the things he said happened. If he had to apologize for it, he regrets having done it.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2022, 01:43:00 PM by hoshisabi »

GeekyBugle

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2022, 01:45:06 PM »
Which is a point i made in my original post that all 3 parties (Bill, BJ, and FGG) agreed to put the issue to rest on her social media and FGG's website.

Who is suggesting otherwise? You are the one who brought up FGG as some sort of comparisson piece to the current GenCon issue but it could not be more different as there was actual physical internaction and the victim reporting on the event and not some 3rd party behind the scenes.

In Frog God's case, the event took years to come to a resolution. If you look at the statement I posted, you'll see that they said "over the last two years."

In this case, the event just happened. The victim made a statement and is happy with her treatment by everyone other than the abuser.

The abuser posted that she screwed up, will seek therapy, and then removed her social media.

I am suggesting that, just as we did for Frog God Games, we permit the situation to come to a conclusion without making some larger statement about the hobby as a whole, or sexuality, or gender identity. (because, as we can easily see, it doesn't take a specific gender identity to be an abuser.)

We also see from another thread that perhaps Daisy has a history of issues. She needs treatment above and beyond just an apology being given. So, we'll see if that happens.

You're so busy running cover for the would be rapist BECAUSE he claims to be a woman, ergo HE is in your ideological/political/cult side. You wouldn't do the same for someone not on that case.

But the issue here is easy: GenCon is putting men in the same room as women if the men claim to be women. We've seen it in prison, schools, etc abusers will choose to camouflage themselves for easy access to their victims. And you, as well as all the left and GenCon could be considered enablers by some.

There's an easy fix, do not mix the two sexes unless by direct request by the participants. This way anything that happens is not your fault.

Then, if anything happens you (as the con higher up) call the police, expell the suspect and if found guilty bann the culprit.

Now go on, keep running cover for past, present and future abusers you mysogginistic pig.
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hoshisabi

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2022, 01:48:17 PM »
You're so busy running cover for the would be rapist BECAUSE he claims to be a woman, ergo HE is in your ideological/political/cult side. You wouldn't do the same for someone not on that case.

But the issue here is easy: GenCon is putting men in the same room as women if the men claim to be women. We've seen it in prison, schools, etc abusers will choose to camouflage themselves for easy access to their victims. And you, as well as all the left and GenCon could be considered enablers by some.

There's an easy fix, do not mix the two sexes unless by direct request by the participants. This way anything that happens is not your fault.

Then, if anything happens you (as the con higher up) call the police, expell the suspect and if found guilty bann the culprit.

Now go on, keep running cover for past, present and future abusers you mysogginistic pig.

What cover?  I call the victim a victim, I call the abuser the abuser.

And misogynistic? Are you the one claiming that only men can be abusers? Is that misogynistic to claim that women can be abusers?

Or is it misogynistic to accept a woman's consent to share a room with who they want, and also accept that when there's an incident that makes them want to get another room, to expect that it all gets handled in a way that the victim says "thank you" to the staff?

Nah, it's not cover.

In this case, an abuser did an abuse and got a consequence.

I could share a room with a woman, sleep in a bed in the same room, and nothing would happen. It's not like all men are serial rapists, good sir.

An abuser could abuse anyone, regardless of gender. This is an abuser, that's the real issue. In fact, it was an abuser that has abused in the past, and she needed to have gotten help in the past, but is getting help now, hopefully.

EDIT: I'm gonna be less snarky, but it's difficult when you snark right at me in the first place.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2022, 02:01:53 PM by hoshisabi »

S'mon

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2022, 02:08:24 PM »
Honestly, I don't know if maybe I do judge a trans like 'Daisy' more harshly than I judge a normal guy like Bill Webb. It's possible, as a reaction to all the media lies about them, the placing of trans claim-to-be-woman sex offenders in women's prisons where they rape the women.  I don't think many people here were defending Bill Webb's behaviour, or saw him as anything other than a harrasser. And Hensley was an innocent victim both of Webb and of the SJW harridans who tried to make her their plaything, she behaved with great dignity throughout. I guess I have a feeling that the trans putting on women's clothing, saying "trust me, I'm one of you!" and then sexually assaulting women, just feels particularly contemptible. It does feel worse than the drunk 'cis' guy harrassing women (and Daisy's assaults sound rather more serious, too). But maybe that is more emotion than logic. And certainly women need to be protected from the Bill Webb types as much as they need to be protected from the Daisy types. But women already know to guard against drunken lecherous dudes in Hawaiian shirts. They are being gaslighted that they do *not* need to guard against Daisy types.

Zalman

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2022, 02:27:08 PM »
OK, I'll say it.

It's not about the abuser in this case being "man" or "woman", IMO, it's more about them being "trans", because if you start with the assumption that men and women can act the very same way and do the very same things regardless of gender, then the only point in being "trans" is a sexual one. Wanting to be "treated like a woman" has only a sexual context, if we espouse the belief that all genders should be treated the same way in every other aspect. In that respect, being "trans" is demanding that your sexual proclivities be entertained by the public at large.

So the question I think, and the feeling about GenCon "putting men and women in the same room", is more about GenCon deciding to have people who are already making public sexual demands of others (i.e. demanding to be called "woman") bunking together with those that would rather not be a part of their sexual proclivities.
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hoshisabi

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2022, 02:44:32 PM »
It's not about the abuser in this case being "man" or "woman", IMO, it's more about them being "trans", because if you start with the assumption that men and women can act the

Are you weighing in because it's an assault and those are serious and we should do everything we can to make sure that people feel safe and comfortable in our shared space?

Because, if you're interested in talking about making sure our hobby is a safe space for women to participate that's great, but if it's just to speak out against trans folk... Well, I am sure we don't have to pretend that it is otherwise. I'd happily scroll past that thread because I understand folks are going to have the opinions they're going to have.

But there's so many of these assaults that happen where everyone involved is cisgender, and the folks claiming that the "blue check mob" are providing cover for the abuser in this situation act in EXACTLY the same fashion that they're acting now.

Everyone is providing support for the victim and calling out the attacker. Just as they've done before, and they will do next time.

It's this forum that's acting differently. I don't tend to see a post about things like any number of past incidents where some loutish dude gets drunk and gropes a woman in an elevator or a bar, or tries to pull a woman into their hotel room, or have a room that they call "the Cosby Room", or ... Well, you get the picture. It happens a lot. (I mentioned the incident about PaizoCon 2017 only because it was one of the few where both sides did agree to at least some of the facts, and did come to a conclusion, there's plenty where it gets just swept under the rug.)

FingerRod

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Re: GenCon enables Sexual ass**lt?
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2022, 02:46:08 PM »
How did GenCon enable the alleged events? Serious question.

The enabling was by whoever put the trans in with the real woman, and whoever pressured or fooled the real woman into thinking this was safe and right. I doubt that Gencon did anything.

Well, since both were working for GenCon, guess who put them together? GenCon! Thus, by doing so SOME might say (because my lawyer tells me I must not assert anything) they enabled the situation. Furthermore, when she told some higher up they didn't call the police, expell the culprit, changed room arrangements or anything. The woman was forced to sleep in a conference room (IIRC) away from her would be rapist.

Given all of that some people MIGHT be of the OPINION that it's at least partly GenCon's fault.

Thanks for the explanation. That was totally my miss. When I read the original note on archive, the initial part about being assigned a room by GenCon was obscured by an ad I could not dismiss. It appears GenCon would hold some culpability in this case.