Quote from: jrientsSee, I'd wait until 2nd level to think I was hot shit, because at that point I could burning hands some fools and charm the barmaid on the same day.

Heh.  Some of us don't need a spell for that latter bit.  People just think it's magic

Did Gandalf ever get laid?

 Go dancing with Tavern Wenches?

 Not that I remember.

SO, why would I ever want to play a mage like Gandalf?  Hell, at least Aragorn and Samwise get married when the whole thing is done.  Racial differences put aside - I think Sam got the better looking wife of the two ladies.

Frodo? Never left his uncle's basement .,..um I mean house before that big adventure.

 So yeah Lord of the Rings is a nice read and all - but its mostly  fun when you're still in Junior High or early High School.

 Original D&D may have been inspired by LOTR , but it went o9r strayed a different direction.

Still, the movies are fun.


- Ed C.

I always got a strong impression that Gandalf was far more powerful than he necessarily let on, but chose to limit his usage of power.

I mean, for fuck's sake, the guy survived hand to hand combat with a damn balrog for crying out loud.

I'd be willing to bet Gandalf was the Shaft/Sam Jackson/Alaganza Mack of middle Earth. He was up to his knees in hobbit pussy!

Y'know, here's something I posted to this very site over a year ago...

Quote from: me, some time ago, a reposting of an even older articleThe article below which is the meat of this particular post is the last thing I wrote and had posted to the Middle-earth d20 site at EN World. Again, it used 3.0 rules, but I don't think that matters too much in this case (Aragorn's "Wilderness Lore" would now be "Survival," that kind of thing).

Anyway:

Was Gandalf Only A Fifth Level Character?
In the March 1977 issue of Dragon Magazine (called then The Dragon) was an article by Bill Seligman entitled Gandalf Was Only A Fifth Level Magic-User. Seligman presented examples from the text of The Lord of the Rings to argue his case, and he did a pretty good job of it. Although D&D Third Edition/d20 is a bit of a different game than D&D circa 1977, much of his argument holds true for the latest edition of the game. Matter of fact, Seligman's article sounds very much like similar discussions going on today, especially on internet message boards.

Seligman asserts that Gandalf need not have been more then 5th level to do any of the things he did in the book. He also asserts that Sauron himself need not have been any higher than 7th or 8th level, possibly 12th at the highest. Although the argument regarding Sauron was, and is, not especially strong - Seligman's article concedes that some of the ranges for the divination spells Sauron used would have been beyond those in D&D, and Sauron's apparent control of Mount Doom's erupting is beyond even many Epic Level spells - I thought it might be interesting to include the Dark Lord in this exercise. One could rationalize, perhaps, that Sauron did not actually control Mount Doom, but could divine when it was going to erupt, and planned accordingly. In any event, I made Sauron 8th level, just to illustrate the point.

I decided to include the entire Fellowship in this, using Gandalf as the upper-level benchmark. In any cases where his spell list includes divine spells, they work the same, but are considered arcane spells for Gandalf. His spells were chosen according to Seligman's article and my own reading of Lord of the Rings, and should accomodate just about anything he did, especially if one considers that he could have altered the appearance of his spell effects. That is, the white bolts he apparently shoots at the Nazgul when rescuing Faramir could easily use the stats for Lightning Bolt (of course, the "bolts" he "shoots" may actually have been just the reflection of light off Narya as he turned the Nazgul as a cleric, but that's another article...)

By the way, if Mr. Seligman, or anyone who knows him, is reading this, I hope he drops us a line. It'd be interesting to hear what he thinks now.

Note: I didn't repeat information from any of the Core Books that weren't really necessary to repeat; virtual feats gained due to belonging to certain classes, detailed breakdown of racial qualities, etc.


Gandalf the Grey

Male Istar Wiz5; Medium; HD 5d4+10 (Wizard); hp 25; Init +1; Spd 30; AC 14; Atk +2 base melee, +3 base ranged; +4 (1d8+2, +2 Longsword); AL LG; SV Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +10; STR 11, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 16, WIS 18, CHA 14.

Skills: Alchemy (fireworks) +11, Concentration +10, Gather Information +3, Knowledge (Middle-earth arcana) +11, Knowledge (Middle-earth History) +11, Knowledge (Local (the Shire)) +8, Knowledge (Nobility (Free Peoples)) +8, Knowledge (Politics (Western Middle-earth) +7, Spellcraft +11

Feats: Iron Will, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword, Scribe Scroll, Spell Mastery (3), Spell Mastery(3)

Possessions: Staff: as a staff of Fire (Charges: 50); Ring: Narya (Combines the effects of a ring of Elemental Resistance (Major), and a Necklace of prayer beads (blessing)); Robes act as a Cloak of resistance (+1), and also confer +3 AC; Glamdring (+2 longsword, glows blue in the presence of orcs); Traveler's Outfit

Spells Known:

0 -- Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Disrupt Undead, Flare, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Resistance

1st -- Burning Hands, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Hold Portal, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, True Strike, Ventriloquism

2nd -- Charm Person or Animal, Continual Flame, Detect Thoughts, Knock, Shatter

3rd -- Flame Arrow, Lightning Bolt

Spells Prepared on a day Gandalf expects trouble (Wiz 4/4/3/2):

0 - Detect Magic, Disrupt Undead, Flare, Read Magic

1st - Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, True Strike, Ventriloquism

2nd - Continual Flame, Detect Thoughts, Knock

3rd - Flame Arrow, Lightning Bolt.

So where are his spell books? He doesn't have, or need, any.


Aragorn

Male Human Rgr4: Medium Humanoid; HD 4d10+16 (Ranger); hp 39; Init +6; Spd 30; AC 12; Atk +5 base melee, +6 base ranged; AL LG; SV Fort +8, Ref +3, Will +6; STR 13, DEX 15, CON 18, INT 13, WIS 17, CHA 15.

Skills: Concentration +5, Heal +9, Intuit Direction +4, Knowledge (Middle-earth History) +2, Knowledge (nature) +5, Knowledge (Middle-earth Nobility) +2, Listen +7, Move Silently +5, Ride +4, Search +3, Speak Language (Quenya) +1, Spot +7, Wilderness Lore +9

Favored Enemy: Orc

Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Track

Spells Known (Rgr --/1):

1st - Alarm, Animal Friendship, Delay Poison, Detect Animals or Plants, Detect Snares and Pits, Entangle, Magic Fang, Pass without Trace, Read Magic, Resist Elements, Speak with Animals, Summon Nature's Ally I.

Spells Prepared (Rgr --/1):

1st - Pass without Trace.

Possessions: Ranger pin (Amulet of natural armor (+2)); Ring of Barahir (ring of Protection +2); shards of Narsil; Explorer's Outfit


Boromir

Ftr3: Medium Humanoid; HD 3d10+9 (Fighter); hp 29; Init +2; Spd 30; AC 12; Atk +6 base melee, +5 base ranged; +3 (1d10+3, Sword, bastard, Masterwork); AL LG; SV Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +1; STR 17, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 13.

Skills: Climb +6, Jump +6, Ride +8, Swim +4

Feats: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Sunder.

Possessions: Horn of Gondor; Sword, bastard, Masterwork; Shields: Shield, large, steel, Masterwork


Frodo Baggins

Hobbit Ari1: Small Humanoid ; HD 1d8+1 (Aristocrat); hp 8; Init +1; Spd 20; AC 12; Atk +0 base melee, +1 (+2 with thrown weapons) base ranged; SQ: Halfling traits (Ex); AL LG; SV Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +6; STR 9, DEX 12, CON 13, INT 12, WIS 13, CHA 12.

Skills: Climb +1, Diplomacy +3, Hide +5, Jump +1, Knowledge (arcana) +2, Knowledge (History of Middle Earth) +2, Knowledge (Local (the Shire)) +5, Knowledge (Shire Gentry) +2, Knowledge (Shire Politics) +2, Listen +4, Move Silently +4, Perform (Sing) +4, Sense Motive +3, Spot +2, Wilderness Lore +2

Feats: Iron Will

Possessions: Traveler's Outfit


Sam Gamgee

Male Hobbit Com1: Small Humanoid; HD 1d4+2 (Commoner); hp 7; Init +1; Spd 20; AC 12; Atk +0 base melee, +1 (+2 with thrown weapons) base ranged; SQ: Halfling traits (Ex); AL LG; SV Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +3; STR 10, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 11, CHA 10

Skills: Climb +2, Handle Animal +1, Hide +5, Jump +2, Listen +2, Move Silently +3, Profession (Cook) +3, Profession (Gardener) +3, Spot +2, Use Rope +2

Feats: Iron Will

Possessions: Cooking gear; Traveler's Outfit


Merry Brandybuck

Male Hobbit Ari1: Small Humanoid; HD 1d8+1 (Aristocrat); hp: 9; Init: +1; Spd 20; AC: 12; Atk +0 base melee, +1 (+2 with thrown weapons) base ranged; SQ: Halfling traits (Ex); AL LG; Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +4; STR 10, DEX 12, CON 13, INT 11, WIS 9, CHA 12

Skills: Climb +2, Gather Information +2, Hide +5, Listen +5, Move Silently +5, Spot +3, Wilderness Lore +2

Feats: Iron Will

Possessions: Traveler's Outfit


Pippin Took

Male Hobbit Ari1: Small Humanoid; HD 1d8+1 (Aristocrat); hp 9; Init: +1; Spd 20; AC: 12; Atk +0 base melee, +1 (+2 with thrown weapons) base ranged; SQ: Halfling Traits (Ex); AL LG; Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +3; STR 11, DEX 12, CON 13, INT 11, WIS 7, CHA 12

Skills: Climb +2, Gather Information +2, Hide +5, Listen +3, Move Silently +5, Spot +2, Wilderness Lore +0

Feats: Iron Will

Possessions: Traveler's Outfit


Gimli

Male Dwarf, Hill Ftr2: Medium Humanoid ; HD 2d10+6 (Fighter); hp 22; Init +0; Spd 15; AC 15; Atk +3 base melee, +2 base ranged; +4 (1d8+1, Battleaxe); SQ: Darkvision (Ex), Dwarven traits (Ex); AL LG; SV Fort +6, Ref +0, Will +0; STR 13, DEX 10, CON 16, INT 11, WIS 11, CHA 10.

Skills: Appraise +2, Craft (Blacksmithing) +0, Craft (Metalworking) +0, Craft (Stonecarving) +2, Craft (Stonemasonry) +2, Craft (Weaponsmithing) +0, Profession (Armorsmith) +2, Profession (Blacksmith) +2, Profession (Metalworker) +2, Profession (Miner) +5, Profession (Stonemason) +2, Profession (Weaponsmith) +2

Feats: Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Battleaxe.

Possessions: Battleaxe; Chainmail; Flint and steel.


Legolas

Male Sindar Elf, Ftr2: Medium Humanoid ; HD 2d10+2 (Fighter); hp 18; Init +4; Spd 30; AC 14; Atk +2 base melee, +6 base ranged; +3/-6 (1d8, Longbow; 1d4, Dagger); SQ: Elven traits (Ex); AL CG; SV Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +0; STR 11, DEX 18, CON 12, INT 11, WIS 11, CHA 11

Skills: Handle Animal +2, Listen +4, Search +2, Spot +4

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow.

Possessions: Longbow; Dagger; Arrows (20); Explorer's outfit


Sauron

Male Maia (Fallen) Necromancer8; Medium; HD 8d4+32 (Wizard); HP: 58 Init: +3; Spd: 30; AC: 14; Atk +4 base melee, +4 base ranged; Special Abilities: Acid/Cold/Electrical/Fire Resistance 20, Immune to poison; AL: Lawful Evil; SV Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +11; STR:18, DEX:17, CON:18, INT:19, WIS:17, CHA:21

Skills: Alchemy +13, Concentration +15, Craft (Gemcutting) +15, Craft (Metalworking) +15, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (Arcana) +15, Knowledge (History) +15, Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) +15, Scry +15, Spellcraft +15

Feats: Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Forge Ring, Maximize Spell, Scribe Scroll

Possessions: Palantir (Crystal Ball with Telepathy); Cloak of Resistance +2

Spells Castable/Known
Wizard (0: 4+1, 1st: 5+1/ 2nd: 4+1; 3rd: 4+1; 4th: 3+1)

Known Spells:

O level: Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Disrupt Undead, Flare, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Resistance

1st level: Cause Fear, Charm Person, Chill Touch, Hypnotism, Identify, Mage Armor, Ray of Enfeeblement, Summon Monster I, True Strike

2nd level: Arcane Lock, Darkness, Detect Thoughts, Ghoul Touch, Knock, Locate Object, Scare, See Invisibility, Shatter, Spectral Hand, Summon Monster II

3rd level Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Dispel Magic, Halt Undead; Hold Person, Lightning Bolt, Nondetection, Slow, Summon Monster III, Vampiric Touch

4th level: Arcane Eye, Bestow Curse, Charm Monster, Confusion, Contagion, Detect Scrying, Emotion, Enervation, Fear, Locate Creature, Scrying, Shout, Summon Monster IV

Innate Spells: Darkness 3x/day; Desecrate; Poison 3x/day; Unholy Blight

By the way, the above doesn't reflect my own take on the Fellowship or Gandalf.  It's more a thought exercise than anything else, to see if it could work within the parameters given. Personally, I think Gandalf, Aragorn, and Boromir are pretty high level - Gandalf and Aragorn at least in the high teens, if not approaching D&D "epic" levels, while Boromir is at least in the mid-teens. Legolas  seems to be of moderately high mod-levels, maybe 8-10th. Gimli seems right about there, but a bit less powerful than Legolas.

I'm curious to see if 4e can be used even better for this.

Colonel, thanks for reposting that article.  I missed it the first time around.

Does anybody have the old White Dwarf issue that offered a trimmed down version of Moria as a starting adventure?  If I recall correctly, Gandalf was something like a cleric 6.

I don't have that, but speaking of Moria...Decipher's Moria box set is actually pretty good. It has a system where it can be customized so no two Moria's are alike, and also, as i recall, includes a system that simulates how the denizens become alert to the PC's presence if certain things happen. Again, as I recall, the latter system reminded me of an earlier, similar system Fiery Dragon used for some of its d20 adventures.

Colonel, I salute you.  I would totally play that game.

My take on things is this -
Gandalf wasn't human, he was a magical/divine entitiy who's mission was to stop Saruon without the involvement of pitting the gods and demigods directly against each other.
His "Rules of Engagement" for want of a better term, was that he could only match force with force. I therefore see his 'level' as scaling up or down depending on the foe.
When with a few hobbits, he was limited to a few low level illusion spells. Versus a horde of Orcs, he could open up a bit (not being a D&Der, how high a level wizard do you have to be to have gained significant melee combat skills alongside magical power?), and against the Balrog, with no other mortals to get caught in the crossfire.
 
 
Or perhaps the entire LOTR is a lot lower powered than first impressions. From what I remember of the Silmarillion, Elven heroes were capable of taking out Balrogs and the older and nastier Dragons. Smaug, who was amongst the mightiest of his race, was slain by a single, well placed arrow from a human longbow.

Maybe we just have an inflated idea of what levels are suppposed to represent these days as compared to original D&D.  A level 4 fighter in the brown books (Hero), after all, was supposed to be equivalent to 4 men in terms of staying power.  A level 5 wizard (Thaumaturgist) isn't too shabby by that metric, either, being as powerful as 3 men.  And level 3 spells are where things start to get kickass; higher level spells allow you to do some pretty incredible things, when you really think about it.

Just another way of looking at things.

Then again, I do remember reading that the Istari were not to show their full power in ME as the Valar did not want to risk another sundering of the world as had happened at the end of the second age.

Quote from: O'Borg... Smaug, who was amongst the mightiest of his race, was slain by a single, well placed arrow from a human longbow.

Yes, but it was Bard's special "black arrow" (which had been in his family for generations, iirc), arguably a 'magic item' of some sort.

Quote from: AkrasiaYes, but it was Bard's special "black arrow" (which had been in his family for generations, iirc), arguably a 'magic item' of some sort.

Direct inspiration for the Arrow of Slaying, I would venture.

Quote from: jrientsDirect inspiration for the Arrow of Slaying, I would venture.

...and Millenia later  I bet a good Watcher would give that arrow to his Slayer.

I'd forgotten that article, many thanks Calithena.

I think it still has a lot to say actually, part of what it says is you can have truly epic fantasy (and LotR is pretty damn epic) which is magic rich but which isn't necessarily all that overpowered.

For me, I'd go for sixth or seventh level as he casts third level spells more than once per day I think sometimes, but one point of that article is that you could have an epic fantasy like LotR with the only magic in the game being a fifth level mage (able to use a sword, but JRTT wasn't writing for DnD after all) and a bad guy with lots of scrying powers.

We don't need magic items a go-go, we don't need power to level cities, we just need imagination, a sense of wonder and a sense that magic is magical.  

Great article, glad to see it again.