(not quite industry, more gamer culture)

I read this  bit where Roger Ebert waxes about his SF fandom days.

http://asimovs.com/_issue_0501/thoughtexperiments.shtml

He describes fans  of the 50's and 60's as part of an underground culture with their own publications, lingo, and big names in the little pond.  The culture was secret not in the sense of a subversive conspiracy, but more like most other people wouldn't understand enough to care and a secret kept to avoid getting beat up or mocked.

Are gamers a subculture in a similar sense?  We have our own humor, lingo, gatherings, and publications.  We even have self appointed marshals who try to police who is allowed in the group.  OOTS is funny only to gamers, and only a subportion at that (i.e. D20 players).  Membership is sometimes secret.  It's not like gamers have some big agenda, but how many of you are reluctant to admit that you're a gamer to coworkers and casual acquantances?

I'm not trying to make a big deal or apply for a grant to study it or anything, just making an observation.  I think geekdom is now full of pocket cultures, each based around a particular activity or fandom:  webcomics, fanficcers, Star Wars, etc.  

Some of the most vicious attacks on a given group come from rival groups.  References from the outside world are generally very clumsy and brief, like scenes of playing D&D in munchkin outfits.  I don't know why this is, some sort of competition for members maybe, or maybe it's worse to have seen the light but then be a bit wrong than to have never seen the light.  But the same sort of behavior is common in other parts of society; during the Reformation, protestant groups attacked each other at least at viciously as they were attacked by Catholics.

I dunno, just interesting how humanity continually forms little pockets that enforce their own conformity.

There are a group of people, the would-be "elitists" who would very much like to consider RPG gaming a "subculture" and intentionally try to push it in that direction, to claim their title of "elite".  So the talk about the "gaming community" as if it was a brotherhood of like-minded people who are united in their difference and opposition from the mainstream, they try to create jargon and lingo that makes it harder for new people to get into gaming (gaming theory amounts to that, basically), and generally try their fucking hardest to force gaming away from the mainstream.  Justifying this with bullshit, incidentally, about how gamers are "special", "smarter than normal people", "artists", what-have-you.

Making a "Subculture" out of a hobby does that hobby no good.  In fact, more often then not it KILLS that hobby as the people who do not want to be part of the "different elite" either leave or are FORCED OUT by the "elite", and those who join from then on are people who don't join out of interest in the hobby but rather out of interest in the incestuous little monstrosity of a society that has formed around the "subculture" of the hobby.

That's why I oppose that sort of bullshit at every turn.

RPGPundit

Where's a "Not this crap again" macro when I need one?

Go grind your axe somewhere else.  I was merely curious how analogous gamers of today are to SF fans of 40 years ago.

There's nothing elitist about the concept of subcultures, and I specifically stated that it was a subculture without an agenda.   If a group behaves differently than the mainstream and preferentially interacts within that group, it's a subculture.  

But I did mention you indirectly when I mentioned self appointed marshals.  You bitch more about bad gamers than anyone else around here.

There is a gamer subculture whether we like it or not, although the prevalence of video gaming has made roleplaying in general seem more mainstream.

Quote from: NicephorusWhere's a "Not this crap again" macro when I need one?

You need but ask...

Quote from: RPGPunditSo the talk about the "gaming community" as if it was a brotherhood of like-minded people who are united in their difference and opposition from the mainstream, they try to create jargon and lingo that makes it harder for new people to get into gaming (gaming theory amounts to that, basically), and generally try their fucking hardest to force gaming away from the mainstream.

I don't know much amount the industry and even less about gamer cultures (sub or otherwise) but this is not really true is it? I mean there are a relatively small group of gamers who dig talking about theory (the Forge etc) but they have no real impact on the hobby. This includes the power to draw or force people to leave to the hobby.

For better or worse, the mainstream perception of gamers comes from the belief that D&D means role playing in general -and rightly or wrongly the stereotype of the gamer comes from this belief. I could be wrong, but it really seems that way .

I do believe that gamers have a subculture element, I just put this down to different folks liking different things and leave it at that. I could be wrong though. I have never been to any conventions (esp in the US) and most if not all my info about gamers from beyond my country comes from forums like these, so my opinion may not really count

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI don't know much amount the industry and even less about gamer cultures (sub or otherwise) but this is not really true is it? I mean there are a relatively small group of gamers who dig talking about theory (the Forge etc) but they have no real impact on the hobby. This includes the power to draw or force people to leave to the hobby.

Well, let me be clear here; I wasn't specifically talking about Forge/Theory types, though of course they are an extreme example of the problem.

I was talking about everyone in general who looks at RPGs as something more than just a game you play sometimes.  

I mean, I play a lot of backgammon too, but does that mean I'm part of the "Backgammon Community" or the "Backgammon subculture"??

As soon as you suggest that the involvement has to be something more than just hobby/incidental, you are shutting the door in the face of all the people who might enjoy casual play of RPGs the same way they'd casually play monopoly or Axis & Allies. You are saying "You have to be HARDCORE to play this, if you aren't willing to be you don't belong here".  Its stupid; its willfully turning yourself into a minority pursuit.

It is in all of our best interest to view and thus promote RPGs as fun games that anyone can play, even just casually, rather than something that has to consume a sizeable chunk of one's existence to be "enjoyed".

But lets face it, for too many people in the hobby, RPGs are too important a part of their lives.  They put a psychological/existencial investment in them that are disproportionate to their actual relevance in one's life, or to what is healthy for a human being.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditI was talking about everyone in general who looks at RPGs as something more than just a game you play sometimes.

Man, The World Cup, is almost upon us, so football fever is in the air. The hard core supporters are out in full force. To them it's more then just a game. I doubt their zeal has stopped anyone from enjoying the game in any substantial manner...but yeah, sometimes they are a problem. (And I'm not talking about the hooligans, who are a whole different kettle of fish)

But I think with gamers, the vast majority view it as just a game, they of course devote differents amounts of time but on the whole, they get it for what it is.

QuoteI mean, I play a lot of backgammon too, but does that mean I'm part of the "Backgammon Community" or the "Backgammon subculture"??

I think gaming is a bit different. There are a whole lot of other interest - scifi/fantasy/books/movies that converge in the hobby. So I guess there is a hell of a lot more stuff in common to build on then just gaming, which is probably why the subculture exist, if at all.

QuoteAs soon as you suggest that the involvement has to be something more than just hobby/incidental, you are shutting the door in the face of all the people who might enjoy casual play of RPGs the same way they'd casually play monopoly or Axis & Allies. You are saying "You have to be HARDCORE to play this, if you aren't willing to be you don't belong here".  Its stupid; its willfully turning yourself into a minority pursuit.

Okay, there are the nut jobs. But surely what you describe is not the norm. One of the main problems I find with gamers is that in their enthusiasm they sometimes overwhelm the newcomers to the hobby, with arcana, that should be learnt at a more leisurely pace

I mean most gamers are pretty inclusive as to how people play rpgs - sure they tend to gravitate towards those who share the same passion for the game as them, but thats cool. Different people enjoy the game in different ways.

QuoteIt is in all of our best interest to view and thus promote RPGs as fun games that anyone can play, even just casually, rather than something that has to consume a sizeable chunk of one's existence to be "enjoyed".

Sure. But like I said, all people have different ways they identify with the game. For some this takes up most of their time, and if they are not neglecting other aspects of their lives - good for them. I'm sure all hobbies have their "Kurtzs" but most gamers are ok on the mental health scale - and don't anyone post a link to rpgnet's "fucked up gamer thread"

My response is based on lurking on various forums - so take it with a pinch of salt. I could be way off with regards to what the majority of gamers are really like (and yeah, I am aware that not all gamers post on forums)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: RPGPunditWell, let me be clear here;*snip*

But almost every bigger hobby has something like a subculture that builds around it, doesn't it? And all of these hobbies have people that take it and their involvement in it to far. And all of these hobbies have people, that don't partake in the subculture and just enjoy it casually, sometimes along with those more "hardcore".

I'm, as a person, quite involved with my hobby, unhealthily so, perhaps. I visit lots of gaming sites, spend a lot of time on messageboards, own lots and lots of books, spend much time thinking about it. I'm part of the subculture, you could say. But in the five years or so I've been playing, there have always been casual players in my groups, that didn't care much about the whole thing and knew shit about the rules. Sometimes I'm put of by their lack of engagment, or they are somewhat put of by my amount of engagement, but in the end we are just meeting to have fun with a hobby.

It's just like with every other hobby. You've got these people that play golf once in a while just casually and pro-golfers. You've got magic players that get one deck in years and totally obsessive pro-players. You've got people that play a videogame once in a while and people that do nothing but play videogames.

Another examples is that there's a very active hip-hop subculture in germany. I like the music, but I'm by no means involved in it.

"Casualists" and "Subculturalists" can easily co-exist, so I don't see your problem (but considering how often you bring it up I'm sure someone else already told you that).

Thing is, you complain of people that want to make RPG's special. But by having a subculture it is explicitly not special, it would be special if it was the way you want it to be (expect for those people that are so obsessive about it, for them it will always be special, just like hip-hop is special for an avid hip-hopper and soccer is special for the many soccer fans here in germany)

Quote from: David RI don't know much amount the industry and even less about gamer cultures (sub or otherwise) but this is not really true is it? I mean there are a relatively small group of gamers who dig talking about theory (the Forge etc) but they have no real impact on the hobby. This includes the power to draw or force people to leave to the hobby.

For better or worse, the mainstream perception of gamers comes from the belief that D&D means role playing in general -and rightly or wrongly the stereotype of the gamer comes from this belief. I could be wrong, but it really seems that way .

I do believe that gamers have a subculture element, I just put this down to different folks liking different things and leave it at that. I could be wrong though. I have never been to any conventions (esp in the US) and most if not all my info about gamers from beyond my country comes from forums like these, so my opinion may not really count

Regards,
David R

As a roleplayer and a SF fan from 40 years ago, I can tell you Ebert got beat up 'cause he was a whiny intellectual little git at the time, not because he liked SF. You think Vin Diesel got beat up 'cause he liked roleplaying? DOH! Wake up! People who get picked on and beat up are picked on and beat up because they have a victim mentality, and those sharks out there know it. Bullies only pick on people who won't or can't defend themselves - not that thet're cowards, just that picking on a guy who'll punch you in the nose isn't worth the trouble. In the vicious, dog-eat-dog world of public school, these people were losers, on the wrong end of the food chain. These folks found hobbies that welcomed them, that don't care whether or not they were "losers."

If you aren't already that way, roleplaying or SF fandom doesn't make you one. I was into athletics - baseball, football, and weightlifting - and sang and played guitar in a rock band. The fact that I loved SF was utterly immaterial to anyone. Everyone knew it, and no-one cared. I had a lot of non-geek friends that loved SF, and, later on, who loved roleplaying - RPing wasn't invented yet.

Bah, and humbug!

-mice

Quote from: flyingmiceAs a roleplayer and a SF fan from 40 years ago, I can tell you Ebert got beat up 'cause he was a whiny intellectual little git at the time, not because he liked SF. You think Vin Diesel got beat up 'cause he liked roleplaying? DOH! Wake up! People who get picked on and beat up are picked on and beat up because they have a victim mentality, and those sharks out there know it. Bullies only pick on people who won't or can't defend themselves - not that thet're cowards, just that picking on a guy who'll punch you in the nose isn't worth the trouble. In the vicious, dog-eat-dog world of public school, these people were losers, on the wrong end of the food chain. These folks found hobbies that welcomed them, that don't care whether or not they were "losers."

If you aren't already that way, roleplaying or SF fandom doesn't make you one. I was into athletics - baseball, football, and weightlifting - and sang and played guitar in a rock band. The fact that I loved SF was utterly immaterial to anyone. Everyone knew it, and no-one cared. I had a lot of non-geek friends that loved SF, and, later on, who loved roleplaying - RPing wasn't invented yet.

Bah, and humbug!

-mice

Ya know, you're right, in a way. While I'm a far throw appart from the time and never went to american highschool, I was the guy who got the (mostly mental) abuse. And the reason was, in the end, me and my behavior. Only once I got a grip of myself others payed me any kind of respect, but then it didn't really matter what my hobby was or somesuch.

However, the whole point doesn't invalidate the question of a subculture.

Quote from: flyingmiceWake up! People who get picked on and beat up are picked on and beat up because they have a victim mentality, and those sharks out there know it.

Don't think this is always the case, Mice. People get picked on for a variety of reasons. Some even fight back. But they still get picked on. Not all victims suffer from a victim mentality(I don't really think this word describes the mentality some people have accurately)...but regardless, suffer the same fate as those who do.

QuoteThese folks found hobbies that welcomed them, that don't care whether or not they were "losers."

Apparently they are some (a few) who do care- how some people play the game, look while they are playing the game, and which games they are playing etc. So the hobby at times in not as inclusive as you or I may think.(I'm talking about gaming here, but I'm sure other hobbies have their various internal divisions) But this really is a different subject

QuoteIf you aren't already that way, roleplaying or SF fandom doesn't make you one.

Sure. But...

QuoteBah, and humbug!

...I reread my post, and I don't see how anything I wrote, could have sparked of these comments. I was talking about about the possibility of gaming as a subculture. :shrug: Guess it came across as something entirely different. Apologies if it this is the case.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: goldYa know, you're right, in a way. While I'm a far throw appart from the time and never went to american highschool, I was the guy who got the (mostly mental) abuse. And the reason was, in the end, me and my behavior. Only once I got a grip of myself others payed me any kind of respect, but then it didn't really matter what my hobby was or somesuch.

However, the whole point doesn't invalidate the question of a subculture.

True enough. I just get really worked up when people trot out the stereotypes. It doesn't fit me, and it doesn't fit most of the roleplayers I know.

-mice

Quote from: David RDon't think this is always the case, Mice. People get picked on for a variety of reasons. Some even fight back. But they still get picked on. Not all victims suffer from a victim mentality(I don't really think this word describes the mentality some people have accurately)...but regardless, suffer the same fate as those who do.

Perhaps that's true, but most of the "losers" I see made that decision for themselves long ago, and many are just as bad in their passive-aggressive way as the bullies are in theirs. A lot of them grow out of it, just like a lot of bullies grow out of their jerkitude, but not all.

Quote from: David RApparently they are some (a few) who do care- how some people play the game, look while they are playing the game, and which games they are playing etc. So the hobby at times in not as inclusive as you or I may think.(I'm talking about gaming here, but I'm sure other hobbies have their various internal divisions) But this really is a different subject

Agreed, There are jerks in every group of sufficint size.

Quote from: David RSure. But...

...I reread my post, and I don't see how anything I wrote, could have sparked of these comments. I was talking about about the possibility of gaming as a subculture. :shrug: Guess it came across as something entirely different. Apologies if it this is the case.

Regards,
David R

Ah, it wasn't you. I've just had my fill of self-loathing gamers on the net lately, and something you said touched me off. When I re-read it, I can't find it myself, so that was just me, doing a bit of transference. Sorry, David - it's me who needs to apologize. Nothing you said deserved that spiel.

Apologies!

-mice

No problem Mice. I realize sometimes posts about gamer culture, sometimes rubs people the wrong way- been there myself many times

Regards,
David R