I didn't emphasize it in my original post but what I found most interesting is how fandom was like a secret double life (a slim bit of life but something in addition to one's normal life). Gamers are kinda like that in that there are quite a few expressions that are used only among fellow gamers but which are never used outside of the group.

Quote from: David RDon't think this is always the case, Mice. People get picked on for a variety of reasons. Some even fight back. But they still get picked on. Not all victims suffer from a victim mentality(I don't really think this word describes the mentality some people have accurately)...but regardless, suffer the same fate as those who do.

Nope, pretty well victims by choice. We aren't talking about abuse victims here, or kids that were beaten up by their dads or what have you.
We're talking about kids picking on other kids.
And the victims of the bullying are the kids who are unwilling to either defend themselves or socialize effectively.  The latter may be an "unable" thing, because they haven't learnt how to yet, but the former is really a question of character.

QuoteApparently they are some (a few) who do care- how some people play the game, look while they are playing the game, and which games they are playing etc. So the hobby at times in not as inclusive as you or I may think.

Thank god for something at least. Its a start...

This hobby desperately needs to be much less inclusive of certain types.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWe're talking about kids picking on other kids.

Yup. And kids pick on kids for various reasons.

QuoteAnd the victims of the bullying are the kids who are unwilling to either defend themselves or socialize effectively.  The latter may be an "unable" thing, because they haven't learnt how to yet, but the former is really a question of character.

Nope. The latter is less about how "they haven't learn't how to yet" but rather about how they are ineffective in defending themselves against the bullies(Defending yourself against bullies does not mean the bullying will stop). As to the former, well there could be various reasons. Character could be one reason why they do not defend themselves, but I doubt that all who do not defend themselves suffer from a "victim mentality".

QuoteThank god for something at least. Its a start...

The way how people play the game, look while playing or what kind of games they play is hardly a "good start" but the fact that you think this is a good start, well that says a lot about how you view this hobby. I don't share your views.

QuoteThis hobby desperately needs to be much less inclusive of certain types.

Not really. There are some folks whom I would not game with (and I believe, many would not game with). But those are a tiny minority of the hobby. And hell, as long as they buy books and play with those who want to play with them, I don't really care that they are in the hobby. No, this line you use is just to get a little attention - really there is no real problem, and as such there is no valid reason to be less inclusive....except maybe if you want the hobby to be a little more elite.

Regards,
David R

Edit - Rpgpundit you did not use the term "good start" . That was my own mistake/misreading/misquote. I apologize, for this, but will let it stand with this edit.

Of course we're a subculture.

At the same time, I have yet to see any real value in any effort aimed at "thinking of ourselves as such".

Subcultures provide the group with a sense of identity.  I don't need that extra sense of identity - I have it, but it's about as useful to me as my appendix.  I mean, I eat, breathe, and sleep gaming; I can point to myself as a big gamer geek, but I don't use "gamer geek" to define who I am.

People that desperately do cling to that added sense of identity, who actually need gamerhood to define who they are...

...Well, that's just fucking sad.

I just find it interesting as a minor anthropological phenomenon, not as something valuable to preserve.  The interesting parts of a splice of society happen before anyone thinks of themselves as part of that group.

Quote from: NicephorusMembership is sometimes secret.  It's not like gamers have some big agenda,

Shit! You mean all these blackmails, all these assassinations, all this infiltration job has been for naught? What will I do now...

Quote from: Ottomsoh the ElderlyShit! You mean all these blackmails, all these assassinations, all this infiltration job has been for naught? What will I do now...

At least you're now qualified for a government job.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenOf course we're a subculture.

At the same time, I have yet to see any real value in any effort aimed at "thinking of ourselves as such".

A lot of it is encouraged by companies aiming for brand loyalty.

Quote from: JongWKA lot of it is encouraged by companies aiming for brand loyalty.

Yes.

Which is valuable to them.  But not to me.

Quote from: RPGPunditNope, pretty well victims by choice. We aren't talking about abuse victims here, or kids that were beaten up by their dads or what have you.
We're talking about kids picking on other kids.
And the victims of the bullying are the kids who are unwilling to either defend themselves or socialize effectively.  The latter may be an "unable" thing, because they haven't learnt how to yet, but the former is really a question of character.

I have to strongly disagree with this. When you talk about the victims of bullies, you sure as hell are talking about victims of abuse. Many kids who suffer from being bullied do have trouble defending themselves, but the way you describe them as "victims by choice" is, frankly, very disturbing to me. The more correct statement would be to call the bullies "perpetrators by choice". Bullies physically and emotionally abuse their victims, using methods that would get adults arrested and thrown in prison. Bullies are disturbed kids who need serious help, just as much or more than their victims.

Sorry for the minor thread hijack, but since my work, as well as my personal history, are very loosely related to this subject I felt the need to speak up.

I agree with that.
I weighed 98 lbs when i graduated from HS. I defended myself and never backed down from anyone, but I was small so the bullying never really stopped. I looked 12 at the age of 19 so some of it even followed me to college. Choice had little to do with it.
There is such a thing as victim mentality, but to assign such a thing to a child is a retard move.


On topic. Gaming was an open secret between my freinds and I. We rarely talked about it with anyone but each other. I still don't talk to people about it, for two reasons mainly: explaining how an RPG works bores the living shit out of me, and nobody really gets it until they play one. The second reason is I'm pretty sure that nobody cares; hell I could give a rat's ass about their poker game or who won the superbowl or the world cup or whatever and  sports fans don't seek me out to talk at me about it- and I am greatful to each and everyone of them.

Quote from: SigmundI have to strongly disagree with this. When you talk about the victims of bullies, you sure as hell are talking about victims of abuse. Many kids who suffer from being bullied do have trouble defending themselves, but the way you describe them as "victims by choice" is, frankly, very disturbing to me. The more correct statement would be to call the bullies "perpetrators by choice". Bullies physically and emotionally abuse their victims, using methods that would get adults arrested and thrown in prison. Bullies are disturbed kids who need serious help, just as much or more than their victims.

Sorry for the minor thread hijack, but since my work, as well as my personal history, are very loosely related to this subject I felt the need to speak up.

Don't get me wrong, I despise bullies. Of all ages.

And just like I disagree with you about the "victim mentality" for the victims of bullying, I disagree with you about the idea that bullies "Need help".  Unless you're talking about a chronic bully/juvenile delinquent in the making, most incidents of bullying I am aware of are really just the "popular kids" picking on the available "unpopular kids" because its perfectly natural behaviour in the cesspool of dysfunction that is junior high/high school.

Bullies might need a good ass-kicking, but they don't need therapy, they aren't victims, they don't need to be mollycoddled or get in touch with their feelings or otherwise be practically rewarded for acting like shit-heads.

The ones that you could argue that could need "help" are those who, by the way they act and carry themselves, seem to draw bullies to them like flies. Mainly, they need help in changing how to project that attitude or stance that lends them to being bullied.

RPGPundit

Quote from: flyingmiceAs a roleplayer and a SF fan from 40 years ago, I can tell you Ebert got beat up 'cause he was a whiny intellectual little git at the time, not because he liked SF.

I believe that.  I like Ebert, but I sure believe that.  :heh:

Quote from: flyingmiceYou think Vin Diesel got beat up 'cause he liked roleplaying? DOH! Wake up! People who get picked on and beat up are picked on and beat up because they have a victim mentality, and those sharks out there know it. Bullies only pick on people who won't or can't defend themselves - not that thet're cowards, just that picking on a guy who'll punch you in the nose isn't worth the trouble. In the vicious, dog-eat-dog world of public school, these people were losers, on the wrong end of the food chain. These folks found hobbies that welcomed them, that don't care whether or not they were "losers."

Amen and repeated for emphasis!

In 8th grade, I was a total nerd.  I even had a fucking calculator watch.  One day, though, I decided that I was NOT going to be a nerd any more.  I threw that damn watch away and started fitting in.  I didn't stop doing my hobbies -- if anything, I play D&D more now -- but I transformed from a nerd to a geek by adopting the necessary social customs of my peers.

It took a while, but by 10th grade I was ignored or even accepted instead of being picked on.

I will almost agree with RPGPundit, though: if you consider yourself a member of a subculture instead of the culture you live in, you're opening yourself to getting the shit beaten out of you.  Protective camouflage is an important thing for anyone who is different.  You don't have to change what you essentially are; you just need to learn to pay lipservice to those around you.

Is that fair?  That is irrelevent.  Life is never fair.  You have to learn to play by the rules of the game.  Unlike in gaming, you can't house rules real life.    (Unless you get fucking rich, that is.)

Quote from: SigmundI have to strongly disagree with this. When you talk about the victims of bullies, you sure as hell are talking about victims of abuse. Many kids who suffer from being bullied do have trouble defending themselves, but the way you describe them as "victims by choice" is, frankly, very disturbing to me.

As per usual, I disagree with Pundit's phrasing, but not so much what he is saying.  When I was a nerd, I chose to be a nerd and I chose to not fit in.  Sure, the bullies also chose to pick on me, but I was making a choice to not fit in to the culture I lived in.  Again, it's not fair that I should have to fit in, but that's life.  If you go around expecting fairness, you will get fucked up the ass every time.

When I made the minimal effort to fit in (bathing every day was an especially good choice!) and accepted the rules of the game, my life suddenly became a lot happier.  

You know I just sat here and read all three pages of this thread, and I'm still not sure how it managed to devolve into some kind of socio-psychological wankfest.

As to the original question, of course RPGs are a subculture.  It's not a matter of opinion, they just Are.  So are comic books, serious Anne Rice fans, furries, non-casual Anime fans, and pretty much any other topic of interest that depends on a certain type of mindset to garner interest.  It's not when role-players started thinking they were a subculture that it started getting retarded, it was when they stopped thinking they were a subculture.
RPGs are not a mainstream thing, and they just never will be.  You can't change that, I can't change that, little green apples can't change that.  Now mainstream advertisement would help (and like everyone else by that I do not mean craptastic B-grade made-for-cable movies or even the pile of rancid cinematic dogshit that was the movie before that, I mean commercial spots that run more than 2 or 3 times, don't run at 4:30am, and not only on the Sci-Fi channel), but absolutely nothing will make RPGs a mainstream thing.

Wolv, what a harsh fucking thing to say, why would you make such a broad, sweeping statement that 90% of us will knee-jerk ourselves into thinking we can shoot down as some kind of bullshit strawman arguement?

Glad you asked.  It's pretty simple, really.  RPGs will never be a mainstream thing any more than comic books will be because it requires a certain sort of mindset to have the least bit of interest in it.  

I don't mean having contempt for it, this isn't the 80's and no one in their normal mind would still think we're freaky devil-worshippers luring little Billy into the woods to sacrifice his pure virgin christian heart to our dark lord satan.  I mean most people, even if you sit down and explain the game (any RPG) to them, or twist their arm into sitting through a session, will have even a passing interest.  
And just because I feel like it, I'll tote out the ole' anecdotal thing.  I don't expect everyone to have a similar experience, although if no one has I'll be surprised.
 
I discovered D&D in the (very) early 80's.  '81 or '82 mostly.  Unfortunately, I couldn't beg, borrow, blackmail, or steal anyone I knew into even considering learning the game.  I know a lot of people have that "And so I got my friends together and Dmed for them, and I had my first group" memory.  That wasn't me, if I was going to even mention D&D my friends had somewhere else to be, and I was welcomed to come if I wasn't going to bring that up again.  I didn't find anyone else who played any RPG at all for years.  Too many years.  Like, until high school, years.

Anyway, I spin this yarn to illustrate that not everyone is even capable of having the least interest in RPGs, whereas most gamers have much more than a passing interest in it.  Like most other subcultures gamers have Always had their own publications, gatherings, lingo, jokes, catchphrases, clichés, etc.  Being a subculture has nothing wrong with it, hell the mainstream culture is made up of myriad subcultures, we're not riding the short bus because we're one too.

And for good measure, as far as the socio-psychological pabulum, it's not just the nerdy, geeky, wimpy, little kids that get picked on.  And your attitude doesn't always effect anything.  Whereas I was somewhat short (5'6"), I was commonly considered pretty good-looking by girls in school (it can be good to have female friends who will tell you these things when the other girls say them, I tell you), was fairly quiet but didn't take any shit, wore glasses but walked with a swagger that wasn't fake, and could fairly easily have kicked the shit out of a good number of single bullies who tried to mess with me.  
Regardless, I was picked on mercilessly.  Not in a "give me yer lunch money or start eatin' toilet, geek" way, but by groups of more popular kids.  Shit happens, and it happens to everyone.