Quote from: Zalman on April 03, 2025, 07:32:38 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on March 29, 2025, 08:37:57 PMMy game does something similar.  There are opposed attack and defense rolls.  If the attack roll beats the defense roll, then the difference is the damage.

I vaguely recall another mechanic, not sure which game, with a percentile attack roll.  If you get a hit then damage is the sum of the two digits.

That's a cool percentile mechanic!

I used opposed attack/defense rolls the same way for a while, but my players (and me!) got into the weeds quickly switching back and forth from attack to defense to attack to defense -- players getting confused as to which they were rolling that moment. And every player rolling multiple times per round was slow for us as well.

So we switched to a single roll combining attack and defense, while still using the margin of success as damage. It's worked amazingly well for us (and surprisingly the consensus at the table is that it feels more realistic.)

I went down that road a ways but ran into some problems I couldn't easily solve.  Maybe you found better solutions than I did; if so I'd be interested in knowing how you did it.  How did you handle 1) one-sided attacks, e.g. bowfire when only one guy has a bow or a spell attack, 2) initiative, 3) purely defensive bonuses (armor or extra defensive abilities intuitively (for me) shouldn't cause more damage) ?

One thing I did that sped up play a bit is that each character has only one attack roll and one defense roll in a round.  The attack roll applies to all attacks if there are multiple, and the defense roll applies to all defense checks.  Sometimes that computation is slightly different, e.g. melee weapon skill doesn't protect against ranged attack, but the die only rolls once.

Quote from: Mishihari on April 03, 2025, 01:14:17 PMI went down that road a ways but ran into some problems I couldn't easily solve.  Maybe you found better solutions than I did; if so I'd be interested in knowing how you did it.  How did you handle 1) one-sided attacks, e.g. bowfire when only one guy has a bow or a spell attack, 2) initiative, 3) purely defensive bonuses (armor or extra defensive abilities intuitively (for me) shouldn't cause more damage) ?

1) is tricky. Since it's a single roll for attack/defense, I try to keep in mind that whatever action a character takes, it also includes defending themselves from all types of attacks. So, a fighter using a "melee" action is not only trying to avoid blows from the guy next to him, but also trying to dodge any incoming arrows, fend off spells, etc.

To some extent this is aided by the conceit that magic in my world is sort of Thundarrian -- it makes noise, and light, and can be physically avoided to some nebulous degree. This works best when I provide vivid sensory descriptions of spellcasting.

For cases where a character is being attacked but doesn't want to return fire (as it were), they can use a "dodge" or "willpower" type action. And if you're indecisive, then your opponent might determine your action. For example, a character that "waits to see what they do" will wind up using "dodge" if it's an incoming missile attack, and "melee" if they get charged.


2) we don't do turn-based; all combatants roll simultaneously. Attacks are resolved from highest to lowest, so level of success also determines initiative.


3) yeah, totally. I moved to armor/defense as damage reduction, which adds a slight extra step to the damage calculation, but players seem quite fond of tracking their own DR and announcing it each time they take damage!

Quote from: Mishihari on April 03, 2025, 01:14:17 PMOne thing I did that sped up play a bit is that each character has only one attack roll and one defense roll in a round.  The attack roll applies to all attacks if there are multiple, and the defense roll applies to all defense checks.

Great idea. As noted above we use a single simultaneous roll so this happens naturally for us as well. (The full system I use is posted over here: https://www.therpgsite.com/design-development-and-gameplay/the-smor-system/ )

Quote from: Mishihari on April 03, 2025, 01:14:17 PMI went down that road a ways but ran into some problems I couldn't easily solve.  Maybe you found better solutions than I did; if so I'd be interested in knowing how you did it.  How did you handle 1) one-sided attacks, e.g. bowfire when only one guy has a bow or a spell attack, 2) initiative, 3) purely defensive bonuses (armor or extra defensive abilities intuitively (for me) shouldn't cause more damage) ?

Not the original respondent but I'm hoping/planning to use something similar  (but sequential instead of simultaneous) so...

1) If there is no way for the other combatant to attack then a roll in their favor is simply a dodge. 
2) Initiative in this type of situation still affects movement/placement/surprise so I'd personally just leave it at that. 
3) No good way around that one unfortunately without complicating the calculation.  The obvious way is that you'd have to keep track of that purely defensive bonus separately and subtract it after the fact.  This is quite clunky and inelegant though.

Seriously, it sounds like you guys want to play Rolemaster

Also, Artesia has a system that is similar to this. If I remember correctly, it is attack minus defense roll, difference is damage as you mentioned. (I can check if it included some neat solutions when I get home)

One mechanic I'm fond of is Silhouette's dice mechanic.

It uses standard d6's where you roll a number of dice equal to the skill rank (0 is roll two and use the lower) and then use the highest. If multiple dice are 6s use 6 +1 per additional six rolled.

Why I like it; I feel it better models how skill performance works. Novices tend towards erratic results (including being as good as a master if they're lucky) while greater skill results in more consistently higher results with occasional (multiple sixes) superior results.

The other reason I like it is that it keeps the resulting check results small (typically single digits) and exceptionally narrow for opposed rolls like combat... which makes their damage system where you multiply your margins of success (typically 1-2, sometimes 3) by a damage multiplier and compare it to a threshold for the damage taken.

Even with dumbed down modern math most people willing to play a ttrpg can multiply by 2 or 3, after which it's just compare to one of three thresholds for effects which keeps combat pretty quick.

I want armor to absorb damage.

I want "to hit" numbers to reflect the fighting ability of the *opponent*.

I want deathspiral mechanics that are adjustable and easy to do on the fly in order to replicate different genres of play. So while HP are not ideal, it could work if you have a wound-track.

No "dead levels". Whether it's a level based system or not. Any and all advancements should be meaningful.

One mechanic I was thinking about was to have a melee defender roll an attack and the roll becomes the DC for the attacker. Then make the armor absorb damage since it's no longer functioning as the DC. That way better fighters can protect themselves instead of just sucking it up when its the other guys turn.
Missile attacks would be similar except with the defenders DEX save as the DC.

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 28, 2025, 09:38:58 AM-Simultaneous attack and defense in melee. To me, this is just obviously how combat should work, but I think I've only seen it in Warlock! and the system Zalman posted recently.

-Armor penetration rolls/armor saves. I feel less strongly about this one, but it makes more sense to me than armor soak or armor folded into defense score.

-Chase/pursuit rules. They're starting to be more common now, but they were a glaring omission in most mainstream games for a long time.

-mix-and-match class/profession systems a la Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay or Shadow of the Demon Lord. Not a good fit for every game, but it's a great system and far superior to D&D multiclassing.

This is my exact list. I will say, though, that switching to armor saves in my OD&D game was the single best improvement of gameplay that I've ever had with a simple house rule. It opens so many mechanical possibilities that I'm surprised 100% of gamers don't do this.

Have to put in a plug for the Phoenix Command injury, knockout, and medical system.

Wounds are rated in Physical Damage points from 1 (stubbed toe) to 100 (concussion) to 1000 (skull fracture) to 10,000 or more (shotgun blast to the head). This has nothing to do with "hit points" but just measures how unhealthy a given wound is.

Total the PD and cross index with the provided medical aid, whether None (hold your guts in with your hand), First Aid (tourniquet), Field Hospital (M*A*S*H), or Trauma Center (inject with metabolic-reducer, stat), to see whether you make it or not.

Advanced rules model permanent disabling injuries so you don't just skip off into the sunset after nearly dying, whether it's a limp, a gimp, general weakness, or being funny in the head from then on.

The cleverest part is the Knockout Value. This is based on the character's willpower and combat experience, and is compared with incoming PD to yield odds of curling up into a ball, surrendering, or running away in panic. The paradoxical thing is that low-KV characters live longer because they get nicked by a bullet and give up, whereas the badasses tough it out until they lose an arm or the top of their head.

Yes, this system deserves more love. I've used it in my campaigns and it's loads of fun.

Percentile roll-under is honestly really fun and I'd like to see it in more less-crunchy games and systems. Viewing your stats as percentages just sorta makes sense. The Troubleshooters does this nicely.

I'm strangely fine with percentile roll under but not a fan of d20 roll under despite understanding that mechanically they're the same thing but just divided by five.   I fully admit there is no concrete logic to this preference of mine.

The problem with percentage roll under is that it doesn't really do modifiers well.  There's all kinds of tricks pulled to mask the problem.  In some systems, they even work OK.  But it is still not addressing the root cause, which is if the percentage is a good reflection of your base skill, then a simple modified version is not, or vice versa.  (Not, of course, that any linear system completely escapes that problem, either.)

The second issue is that percentages implies that you can use the whole range, when in reality it's roughly 20% to 95% at the outside, and you want to spend most of the time in the 40% to 90% range, or even a bit tighter.

The third issue is all of that supposed granularity doesn't actually exist, if you do all your modifiers in 5% or 10% chunks.

So I'd put percentage roll under as something that looks at first glance as it should be more popular.  When you set out to design a game with it, it flips to being surprising that it is as popular as it is.  I'll note that RQ gets around one of the biggest objections by having opposed rolls much of the time, negating the need for as many modifiers.

Quote from: tenbones on April 11, 2025, 05:49:57 PMI want armor to absorb damage.

I want "to hit" numbers to reflect the fighting ability of the *opponent*.

I want deathspiral mechanics that are adjustable and easy to do on the fly in order to replicate different genres of play. So while HP are not ideal, it could work if you have a wound-track.

No "dead levels". Whether it's a level based system or not. Any and all advancements should be meaningful.

Sounds very Palladium Fantasy.

1.  Armor is extra hit points, though a high roll to hit will bypass it because armor has a second stat called Armor Rating. Roll equal/under AR, the armor absorbs the damage.  Roll over the AR, you hit the guy.

2.  Strike vs Parry.  Your strike, his parry.  If he has a big parry bonus, it's hard to land a hit.

3.  Armor loses AR as it takes damage.  Palladium is a D20 game, so AR is generally between 10-17.  At half of its own HP gone (called Structural Damage Capacity to differentiate between living and inanimate stuff in Palladium aka poison does HP damage, but does nothing to a door's 35 SDC), it drops by 2.  When you're at 1/3 of the Armor's Structual Damage Capacity, you lose another 2 AR.  So, your fanciest full plate armor starts as AR 17, but if you wear beat up full plate, the AR is only 13.  Better go see an armor smith. 

4.  Generally each level you will get a bonus to either your sword or shield strike & parry skills, and non-combat skills all go up by 5% as they're percentile based. Wizards get more spells every level, typicall two.  Leveling up is rare.  Palladium only goes up to level 15, and that takes a lot to reach.  Highest level we saw in 5 years playing was 13.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 14, 2025, 03:25:35 PMThe problem with percentage roll under is that it doesn't really do modifiers well.  There's all kinds of tricks pulled to mask the problem.  In some systems, they even work OK.  But it is still not addressing the root cause, which is if the percentage is a good reflection of your base skill, then a simple modified version is not, or vice versa.  (Not, of course, that any linear system completely escapes that problem, either.)

Add the modifier to the skill percentage before the roll. Easy, works fine, and gives you the same reflection of your chance for success.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 14, 2025, 03:25:35 PMThe third issue is all of that supposed granularity doesn't actually exist, if you do all your modifiers in 5% or 10% chunks.

If you do the steps of 5% yes, but having two die still allows you to do specials on doubles, or use the reversed die roll as Hit Location, or other tricks for damage as mentioned in this thread.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 14, 2025, 03:25:35 PMThe third issue is all of that supposed granularity doesn't actually exist, if you do all your modifiers in 5% or 10% chunks.

The 007 uses multiples of numbers to roll under instead of +- modifiers. This preserves granularity while also making skills above 100 work better. It requires a chart but, instead, you can just write the multiples on your character sheet. So, for example, if you had a skill of 90 you'd write:

90 / 45 / 22 / 11 / 5

So if you roll between 90 and 46 you get one success. Between 45 and 23 you get two successes, etc. Opposed rolls win by having more success and difficult tasks might require 2 or 3 successes (either in one roll for things like shooting or through multiple rolls for things like picking locks).

Also, having a skill above 100 would be just as easy to handle, so a skill of 140 would be:

140 / 70 / 35 / 17 / 8


Anyway, no game writes skills down this way although Runequest and 007 James Bond use similar breakpoints.