Fizban's Treasury of Dragons
Already listed on Ama... for presale.
Will include Gem Dragons.
I guess this will be the Draconomicon of 5th Edition?
Do people really run games where dragons are so common that you need two dozen varieties? I guess I'm old fashioned but dragons are always rare and unique characters.
Quote from: Zelen on July 17, 2021, 12:35:37 AM
Do people really run games where dragons are so common that you need two dozen varieties? I guess I'm old fashioned but dragons are always rare and unique characters.
Dragons are like Elves and Jelly, always room for more.
Quote from: Zelen on July 17, 2021, 12:35:37 AM
Do people really run games where dragons are so common that you need two dozen varieties? I guess I'm old fashioned but dragons are always rare and unique characters.
I recently asked a child to answer several questions about the setting for a gaming session; to potentially lead into additional gaming sessions, of an unknown duration.
She decided there were Red, White, and Blue Dragons in this setting. Red were the most common, and White were the least common. She called the Red Dragons Fire Dragons, the White Dragons Ice Dragons, and the Blue Dragons Thunder Dragons.
That's plenty, for me to DM. Plus, she doesn't know about the Dracolich. There should be plenty of other creatures around; but obviously, there are Dragons too.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 17, 2021, 12:54:14 AM
Quote from: Zelen on July 17, 2021, 12:35:37 AM
Do people really run games where dragons are so common that you need two dozen varieties? I guess I'm old fashioned but dragons are always rare and unique characters.
Dragons are like Elves and Jelly, always room for more.
I've been expecting WOTC to release a Draconomicon, and a Manual of the Planes for D&D 5E for years now. They are going to tell the story of the First World, in this Dragon release.
Quote from: Zelen on July 17, 2021, 12:35:37 AM
Do people really run games where dragons are so common that you need two dozen varieties? I guess I'm old fashioned but dragons are always rare and unique characters.
Not everyone runs a setting that's a Tolkien clone. There are numerous fantasy settings where dragons are much more common; even used as mounts by the protagonists/antagonists in some of them.
Heck, even D&D got in on that action with the original Dragonlance modules.
The point is; just because you don't run/play in a setting where they're common doesn't mean everyone does.
Quote from: Zelen on July 17, 2021, 12:35:37 AM
Do people really run games where dragons are so common that you need two dozen varieties? I guess I'm old fashioned but dragons are always rare and unique characters.
I don't always need dragons to be rare, and if they are more common, they don't have to be very unique at all. WFRP has dragons that are ridden by elves by the dozens (Sigmar help you if you're on the wrong side of them), and they are fairly homogenous. OTOH, there are the very unique (and almost godlike) great dragons of Earthdawn (and Shadowrun, if you like) that are quite rare--outside of all of the fiction that focuses upon them. IOW, there is room for both.
Might be nice to have a tan dragon, taupe dragon, winter grey dragon, beige dragon, and navy vessel gray dragon and they have a chromatic sovereign who is the most boring true neutral entity who ever lived. All five of these dragons respectively focus on accounting, financial services planning, nutrition, low maintenance suburban yard care, and technical writing.
Quote from: palaeomerus on July 18, 2021, 09:19:31 PM
Might be nice to have a tan dragon, taupe dragon, winter grey dragon, beige dragon, and navy vessel gray dragon and they have a chromatic sovereign who is the most boring true neutral entity who ever lived. All five of these dragons respectively focus on accounting, financial services planning, nutrition, low maintenance suburban yard care, and technical writing.
Maybe the chromatic sovereign could be the Plaid Dragon
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 17, 2021, 08:23:18 AM
Quote from: Zelen on July 17, 2021, 12:35:37 AM
Do people really run games where dragons are so common that you need two dozen varieties? I guess I'm old fashioned but dragons are always rare and unique characters.
Not everyone runs a setting that's a Tolkien clone. There are numerous fantasy settings where dragons are much more common; even used as mounts by the protagonists/antagonists in some of them.
Heck, even D&D got in on that action with the original Dragonlance modules.
Can't be overstated. It's in the name of the game, it's an iconic monster, and there's a campaign setting revolving around dragons.
Quote from: Shasarak on July 18, 2021, 11:20:45 PM
Quote from: palaeomerus on July 18, 2021, 09:19:31 PM
Might be nice to have a tan dragon, taupe dragon, winter grey dragon, beige dragon, and navy vessel gray dragon and they have a chromatic sovereign who is the most boring true neutral entity who ever lived. All five of these dragons respectively focus on accounting, financial services planning, nutrition, low maintenance suburban yard care, and technical writing.
Maybe the chromatic sovereign could be the Plaid Dragon
ooh. Textile dragons. Double knit dragon, herring bone, hounds tooth, tweed, tartan...cashmere...chiffon, fishnet...the leisure suit dragon...endless possibility.
Quote from: Zelen on July 17, 2021, 12:35:37 AM
Do people really run games where dragons are so common that you need two dozen varieties? I guess I'm old fashioned but dragons are always rare and unique characters.
I'm with you, but no doubt if they produce something "cool" and it becomes popular whomever owns the property will regurgitate it over and over again to the point of absurdity- Drow. Against some Giants. Mind Flayers. Orcus. Tombs of Horror. Lich Lords. Beholders. The Great Wheel. Dragons/Dragonlance. Elemental Evil. Big Cities and Small Towns of The Savage Frontier.... these will be crammed down your throat until the property dies (which won't be anytime soon).
This is what Wizards* says you want to buy.
* No doubt TSR did this too, but they at least gave us tons of other material to pick and choose from as well.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 17, 2021, 08:23:18 AM
Quote from: Zelen on July 17, 2021, 12:35:37 AM
Do people really run games where dragons are so common that you need two dozen varieties? I guess I'm old fashioned but dragons are always rare and unique characters.
Not everyone runs a setting that's a Tolkien clone. There are numerous fantasy settings where dragons are much more common; even used as mounts by the protagonists/antagonists in some of them.
Heck, even D&D got in on that action with the original Dragonlance modules.
The point is; just because you don't run/play in a setting where they're common doesn't mean everyone does.
Vanilla D&D has 5 different dragon types, with different stats and powers for each age of each type. It works as a "you're level 5, so here's a dragon you can fight in an interesting battle. And here's a different dragon for when you're level 20" sort of thing. You can fill the freaking skies with all sorts of dragons. And you don't even need all 5 types and the range of ages if you don't want them all. You can make a setting where red dragons are the only kind, and they fill all roles you want a dragon to fill (challenge, mount, livestock, etc.).
But honestly? TTRPG gamers are often jaded and unimaginative enough that the idea of "just" an old chromatic dragon is boring to them. Blame it on the GM if you'd rather, for not sparking some life in the encounter and its description. So publishers churn out books of pre-imagined stuff, and people gobble it up to read (and maybe, just maybe, actually put in a game). The idea that "variety equals interesting" is a lazy fallacy.
Quote from: JeffB on July 19, 2021, 09:31:38 AM
* No doubt TSR did this too, but they at least gave us tons of other material to pick and choose from as well.
And when TSR did it, we didn't have literal decades of material from other publishers doing it on top of them.
I'll cut some slack for the company who published monster manuals back in the 80's. The publishers doing it now -really- have to up the bar to be worth a damn.
I started this FYI thread before I saw the whistleblower stuff about Hasbro. I'm not trying to help sell WOTC product. I'm just noting where we probably are in the life cycle of 5E.
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 19, 2021, 04:53:27 PM
But honestly? TTRPG gamers are often jaded and unimaginative enough that the idea of "just" an old chromatic dragon is boring to them. Blame it on the GM if you'd rather, for not sparking some life in the encounter and its description. So publishers churn out books of pre-imagined stuff, and people gobble it up to read (and maybe, just maybe, actually put in a game). The idea that "variety equals interesting" is a lazy fallacy.
I do think this is largely a failure of GMing. If the GM tells you, "A red dragon appears!" then, yeah, that gets lame past the first few times. If all you have is the name that's on the tin then you need a new name on the tin to differentiate one creature for another. It's not a red dragon, it's a "LAVA dragon!"
It's really no different from describing a character. You can describe, "The shopkeeper is a human," versus, "The shopkeeper is one of these WACKY races" versus, "The shopkeeper eyes you with wariness, his body language tensing up as you approach. His moustache twitches as he lets out a gruff utterance you take as a greeting...""
Obviously stuff like Dragonlance is a different case.
I fully expect it to suck and have no plans to buy it.
3E's Draconomicon was gorgeous -- I really dig Todd Lockwood's art, to be honest -- and it had some neat ideas and seeds for adventures. So no, I don't expect the 5E splat to be any better than expensive toilet paper. If I need to, I can probably convert any concepts or ideas from the Draconomicon into 5E crunch with minimal fuss.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 21, 2021, 03:53:36 PM
I fully expect it to suck and have no plans to buy it.
3E's Draconomicon was gorgeous -- I really dig Todd Lockwood's art, to be honest -- and it had some neat ideas and seeds for adventures. So no, I don't expect the 5E splat to be any better than expensive toilet paper. If I need to, I can probably convert any concepts or ideas from the Draconomicon into 5E crunch with minimal fuss.
Come on now, tell us how you really feel.
Quote from: Zelen on July 20, 2021, 12:29:07 AM
Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 19, 2021, 04:53:27 PM
But honestly? TTRPG gamers are often jaded and unimaginative enough that the idea of "just" an old chromatic dragon is boring to them. Blame it on the GM if you'd rather, for not sparking some life in the encounter and its description. So publishers churn out books of pre-imagined stuff, and people gobble it up to read (and maybe, just maybe, actually put in a game). The idea that "variety equals interesting" is a lazy fallacy.
I do think this is largely a failure of GMing. If the GM tells you, "A red dragon appears!" then, yeah, that gets lame past the first few times. If all you have is the name that's on the tin then you need a new name on the tin to differentiate one creature for another. It's not a red dragon, it's a "LAVA dragon!"
It's really no different from describing a character. You can describe, "The shopkeeper is a human," versus, "The shopkeeper is one of these WACKY races" versus, "The shopkeeper eyes you with wariness, his body language tensing up as you approach. His moustache twitches as he lets out a gruff utterance you take as a greeting...""
Makes sense, given that most of those "200 Ways To Redescribe A Dragon" type books are geared towards GM's.
I mean, there's stuff that's meant to be more Player-facing, but even that tends to get double-bought (or only-bought) by the GM as well.
Ah hell, maybe I'm just still bitter at all the lazy people playing World of Darkness games and insisting that they be allowed to play some asinine character build. "You're playing Werewolf the Apocalypse? Cool! Here's my Vampire-Weretiger build. What do you mean 'it's just a werewolf game'?!?! Why are you trying to deprotagonize me?!?!"
Quote from: Jam The MF on July 21, 2021, 04:50:19 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 21, 2021, 03:53:36 PM
I fully expect it to suck and have no plans to buy it.
3E's Draconomicon was gorgeous -- I really dig Todd Lockwood's art, to be honest -- and it had some neat ideas and seeds for adventures. So no, I don't expect the 5E splat to be any better than expensive toilet paper. If I need to, I can probably convert any concepts or ideas from the Draconomicon into 5E crunch with minimal fuss.
Come on now, tell us how you really feel.
Seeing as how Hasbro is running diversity training that states toddlers are racist, I have no real reason to assume it will NOT suck.
How is a Black Dragon inherently being evil in 5e not racist?
I mean c'mon!
And there is no representation of Yellow Dragons. My people are totally offended.
Quote from: tenbones on July 22, 2021, 08:48:08 AM
How is a Black Dragon inherently being evil in 5e not racist?
I mean c'mon!
And there is no representation of Yellow Dragons. My people are totally offended.
Red Dragons also need to be renamed Indigenous American Dragons so they won't be offensive... and 4/5 of the chromatic dragons aren't evil, they're just misunderstood.
Only White Dragons are actually evil... from birth.
Personally, I'm expecting this thing to include Rainbow Dragons (reproduce by magic because they're all homosexual) and Transdragons (ex. a Blue who identifies as a Bronze) so they can say they're properly inclusive.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 22, 2021, 11:14:07 AM
Only White Dragons are actually evil... from birth.
Personally, I'm expecting this thing to include Rainbow Dragons (reproduce by magic because they're all homosexual) and Transdragons (ex. a Blue who identifies as a Bronze) so they can say they're properly inclusive.
Rainbow Dragons have precedent:
https://www.amazon.com/Revenge-Rainbow-Dragons-Endless-Adventure/dp/0880380217 (https://www.amazon.com/Revenge-Rainbow-Dragons-Endless-Adventure/dp/0880380217)
And of course they want revenge...
it was right there in front of us all these decades.
Quote from: tenbones on July 22, 2021, 08:48:08 AM
How is a Black Dragon inherently being evil in 5e not racist?
I mean c'mon!
And there is no representation of Yellow Dragons. My people are totally offended.
Perhaps Gold = Yellow?
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2021, 04:30:19 PM
Quote from: tenbones on July 22, 2021, 08:48:08 AM
How is a Black Dragon inherently being evil in 5e not racist?
I mean c'mon!
And there is no representation of Yellow Dragons. My people are totally offended.
Perhaps Gold = Yellow?
The Bling Dragon?
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 22, 2021, 11:14:07 AM
Quote from: tenbones on July 22, 2021, 08:48:08 AM
How is a Black Dragon inherently being evil in 5e not racist?
I mean c'mon!
And there is no representation of Yellow Dragons. My people are totally offended.
Red Dragons also need to be renamed Indigenous American Dragons so they won't be offensive... and 4/5 of the chromatic dragons aren't evil, they're just misunderstood.
Only White Dragons are actually evil... from birth.
Personally, I'm expecting this thing to include Rainbow Dragons (reproduce by magic because they're all homosexual) and Transdragons (ex. a Blue who identifies as a Bronze) so they can say they're properly inclusive.
"Only White Dragons Are Evil"
Well played!!!