Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;973642True, but I've found it's not really worth arguing about.

But that's why we have the Internet.

Quote from: Telarus;973537While not entirely appropriate for a low-magic fantasy game, I also have to recommend the Earthdawn spell-system. It is very tied into the metaphysics of the game-world (& the nasty lovecraftian Horrors that showed up when the mana spike happened). Here's a decent old thread with a good, very basic, summary: https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?121399-Earthdawn-Splain-the-magic-system!

Thanks for that link mate... A lot of people seem to rate the magic system in Earthdawn. The matrix idea seems interesting. For the Mana spikes (or botches, if they are similar) I like the idea of nasty Lovecraftian abominations showing up (the odd time). Keeps the players getting too cocky!

Quote from: Baron Opal;973571What I have done:

A) Mana Points = Level x Intelligence / 4. Spell cost = Level of spell.

Result: Increased versatility, more low level spells, fewer high level spells. Controlling spells known is very important, other wise you'll wish for LFQW.

B) Spells as standard, but knowledge not tied to spell slots, and lower level spells castable with higher level slots.

Result: Same number of spells as before, but versatility increases. A 7th level wizard can still drop two fireballs and four magic missiles, but the players will actually seek out utilitarian spells, and be able to use them. Sometimes, the tears of a magician sacrificing a 4th level slot for feather fall are tasty.

Also, this effectively turns memorization into "spell points" with a minimum amount of work. The total number of spells doesn't change, it's just that the magician has the skill to use a fraction of his mana more efficiently to cast spells of greater complexity.

Furthermore, at first level I have magicians know their INT bonus in additional first level spells. A useful boost at levels 1-3, but doesn't overshadow the martial types later.

C) Magicians can cast a number of spells per day equal to Level + INT mod. Of these, magicians can only cast 1+ INT mod of their highest level spells.

Result: Just trying this out now. Simplest, with one caveat to stem fireballorrhea.

With all schemes, spell knowledge is restricted to research, barter, or salvage. Magicians don't get automatic spells in their spell book each level.

(Because I'm answering as I read)


If it was me, I would let the players decide if picking their spells for the day was tedious or not.

That said, you can just say that learning spell formulae are like learning specialized skills. You don't simply forget how to do an appendectomy. However, if your planning on transitioning from general surgery to something more specialized, you can spend some considerable time an effort performing a fellowship into a different area. You make there be a significant cost to change the spells in the spell book. An extra spells that the character has access to may not be castable, but perhaps they can write scrolls or create items with them.

ACKS is a good example of this.

Thanks for that! The Mana point sytem, in the way that you described it, seems pretty solid to me. Plus, I really like the Magic user having to sacrifice their higher spells as the game dictates (as in your feather fall example). And I get what you are sayng about limiting spell knowlege. Again, I totally agree and I'd implement limatations in my own game.

I'd be the same... No free spells just becase you've reached a new level. I'd really like to encourage the 'groundwork' in order for them to get any new spells, etc. It's have the fun!

Regarding the point you made about players picking their spells at the start of the day. On reflection, I'd say you're right about that too. It should be the players choice and if they want to go that route and I'd be happy to facilitate them.

I've heard of ACKS alright, but I don't know much about it, but I'll have a look out for it.

Thanks!

Quote from: The Exploited.;973678Thanks for that!

You're welcome!

QuoteThe Mana point sytem, in the way that you described it, seems pretty solid to me. Plus, I really like the Magic user having to sacrifice their higher spells as the game dictates (as in your feather fall example). And I get what you are sayng about limiting spell knowlege. Again, I totally agree and I'd implement limatations in my own game.

I hope you're referencing method B. For grins I messed around with a spreadsheet, and the resulting numbers for A) only vaguely match my memories. As I remember, most of the group were spell casters or multiclassed. And there was a lot of spells thrown about defensively before adventures. The math is a bit out of whack, and I'm probably forgetting something important about it.

B has worked well, and isn't that much different than btb.

C is going alright at the moment, but I'm waiting to see if it is simpler, but too simple.

Quote from: The Exploited.;973256But the one thing that really sticks out, for me at any rate, is that whole 'forgetting' the spell after it's cast. So, effectively you can only cast it once per day. Anyone else feel the same on this?

Yeah, I have thought it seemed silly since the first time I heard about it in 1980. I don't think it's as silly as I used to, but I still almost never choose such a magic system. If I do want a spell to be limited in casting frequency, I tend to prefer other mechanics/reasons/explanations why/how it isn't spammable. Such limits can be interesting and add something to play, or it can just be the spell simply doesn't work more than once per day per caster (or whatever), but the caster forgetting and need to re-memorize rarely feels right  to me.

QuoteThe second part of this thread is asking for advice. Have you got any ideas/suggestions on how to remedy this?

1) I was thinking of adding some kind of 'Magic Points' secondary attribute. Tied to Wisdom. I'm not saying that magic points are the best but it would eliminate some of my bugbears.

Yep. My solution, as for all the other things I didn't like about D&D, was to play TFT & GURPS instead. (Literally no bugbears, either. ) Their magic systems tend to have spells cost fatigue points that are based on strength and/or health. Can also be IQ, wisdom, will, or its own stat (mana), but by having a limit that recharges over time and/or with rest, you get a more natural-seeming mechanic that also interacts with other game mechanics. More powerful spells can require more energy, some spells can take variable power levels for more or less effect, you can have techniques for lowering cost, apprentices casting spells to lend their power to you, etc. It's not an easy thing to just hand-wave onto a spell list not designed for it and hope it's balanced, though. It works best when smart game developers have meticulously balanced and playtested it, etc.

Quote2) Or just let the players cast any spell they want as their level suggests. So, in essence, they could cast sleep twice a day, etc.
3) Give them an extra spell as their intelligence bonus suggests (I've seen this in a couple of OSR games already).
4) I think it's in Crypts and Things - There's a 'luck attribute' and you can roll on it to see if you can remember the spell you've just cast.

There are of course many ways you can do it. I don't particularly like your 2 3 or 4.

Others I like to use sometimes (usually combined with the mana points approach):

* Ingredient requirements. Spells consume ingredients which you need to find, get, store, carry, not get destroyed, use up.
* Tools. Different spells might also require different equipment which you need to find, get, carry, ready to use, etc, but don't get used up.
* Penalties to re-cast a spell if you don't wait a certain period, either per caster or per subject. Combined with risks of accident which apply the worse the modified roll result is, means it can be safe to cast a spell periodically, but have problems of some sort if you try to cast it very frequently.
* Using up environmental magic resources. Depending on the theory of what does the magic, that may get strained by frequent use of powerful or specific spells. Maybe the spells work via elementals or djinn or spirits or something, and there are only so many around and they get tired or go away after being bent to someone's will. Or maybe there is only so much ambient mana and it gets used up and slowly replenishes, or maybe some mix.
* Some spells may be limited as to when they can be cast. Noon, midnight, moonrise, sunset, when lightning strikes, when someone dies, as you fall asleep or wake, as you pull a hair out of the subject, etc.

Quote from: Skarg;973823Others I like to use sometimes (usually combined with the mana points approach):

* Ingredient requirements. Spells consume ingredients which you need to find, get, store, carry, not get destroyed, use up.
* Tools. Different spells might also require different equipment which you need to find, get, carry, ready to use, etc, but don't get used up.
* Penalties to re-cast a spell if you don't wait a certain period, either per caster or per subject. Combined with risks of accident which apply the worse the modified roll result is, means it can be safe to cast a spell periodically, but have problems of some sort if you try to cast it very frequently.
* Using up environmental magic resources. Depending on the theory of what does the magic, that may get strained by frequent use of powerful or specific spells. Maybe the spells work via elementals or djinn or spirits or something, and there are only so many around and they get tired or go away after being bent to someone's will. Or maybe there is only so much ambient mana and it gets used up and slowly replenishes, or maybe some mix.
* Some spells may be limited as to when they can be cast. Noon, midnight, moonrise, sunset, when lightning strikes, when someone dies, as you fall asleep or wake, as you pull a hair out of the subject, etc.

This is it mate... Forgetting spells, after some really good explanations here, feel alright to me now. So, it's not a issue for me anymore. I'm happy enough with some sort of spell limitations as well. So, if I did go the rout of spells dissolving from the mind after use, that makes sense for only that spell a day.

I guess it's just down to personal game preference. So, I'll probably go the magic points/mana route now. As you pointed out it feels pretty natural. So, the character recover MPs after a given space of time (and proper rest!). I see dealing with forces that we humans were not meant to meddle should be pretty strenuous as well dangerous. And the more powerful spells are going to cost you dearly.

Thanks for those suggestions mate. I really didn't like the 'luck thing' in Crypts and Things. It's just far too nebulous and I don't see a decent vector to actually make it work.

The idea of a cumulative fumble is cool too when a player decides to 'push' his or her spell use.

Limiting spells to different times is cool as well - Given the ebb and flow of magical energies (makes them feel a bit like rituals, which I like). So, that's a nice touch to have them performed at certain periods of the day (or Lunar phases, etc.).

I'm still thinking about the cosmology at the moment, so I'm not 100% sure of the origin of magic yet. Some of it will definitely be Lovecraftian in nature (derived from comic entities). I was also thinking that magic is something a kin to a 'science' (Mcguffin!) given the planets nature.

I would like some shamanistic magic too, similar to the science bit, but has been tapped into by more primitive cultures without the academic study that Wizards have to do. They are just manipulating it in a different way.

One other cool thing about going the MP route is that a caster can decide to spend more MPs to customize the spell's effect. So, if it was just a levitate spell they could pay more points to maybe slowly float forward as well, etc.

Thanks!

I'm glad to have been able to offer something helpful. It sounds like you've got what you want.

The tricky parts for me are predicting what will work the way I'd like for purposes of balance and exploits players may come up with.

I like cumulative modifiers because it gives the option of caution or pushing despite danger. There can also be modifiers for things like how long you take to cast a spell, missing/substitute ingredients, how good the conditions are, etc. And it means that as a character gets better, they naturally can do things more frequently or faster or whatever... but the whatever also leaves a lot of room for potential unforeseen/untested tricks players may figure out. I find though that having only the safe end of the failure result tables known, and "mysterious GM tables of fun failures" when they push it, keeps most players mostly not trying to exploit that side of it, at least. When players know all the rules then they tend to push the limits, but when there's a safe way and an unknown possibly dangerous way, many players will err on the side of caution more often. (Except when they don't... :-D )

Quote from: Skarg;973946I'm glad to have been able to offer something helpful. It sounds like you've got what you want.

The tricky parts for me are predicting what will work the way I'd like for purposes of balance and exploits players may come up with.

I like cumulative modifiers because it gives the option of caution or pushing despite danger. There can also be modifiers for things like how long you take to cast a spell, missing/substitute ingredients, how good the conditions are, etc. And it means that as a character gets better, they naturally can do things more frequently or faster or whatever... but the whatever also leaves a lot of room for potential unforeseen/untested tricks players may figure out. I find though that having only the safe end of the failure result tables known, and "mysterious GM tables of fun failures" when they push it, keeps most players mostly not trying to exploit that side of it, at least. When players know all the rules then they tend to push the limits, but when there's a safe way and an unknown possibly dangerous way, many players will err on the side of caution more often. (Except when they don't... :-D )

That's true... I think it will need a few playtests to get the right balance. Hopefully, it will be a long(ish) running campaign so that would give me time to smooth over the kinks.

Exactly what you said there mate! Cumulative penaties give that sense of drama where the players are gambling to push themselves but are unsure at the same time. I love it. Failures as long as they are handled correctly are usually the most fun for me as a player anyway.  Those type of mechanics can really enhance a game overall! Cheers again.

This thread has been a real gem for me so far...

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to help me out!

Many thanks!

Rob.

How many people arguing about "Vancian" magic in RPGs have actually read the Jack Vance stories in question?

Wizards don't "forget" spells after they cast them. The "Memorization" is a process of enchanting material components (yes, they are magic up ahead of time), and impressing magic energies upon the mind. When a spell is cast these magical energies are released. Each spell has a different energy pattern, so each spell use needs to be preselected and "programed" individually.

It makes sense in teh stories, and in the initial contaext of D&D magic users as battlefield artillery. A limited number of preselected artillery rounds available for the day is part of the game.

For a D&D game that allows wizards to cast any spell they know, subject to a limitation on how many spells they know, or cast minor cantrips as long as they make a succesful skill roll, or cast longer, more powerful rituals check out Beyond the Wall.

D&D Vancian magic models Vancian wizards, well one sort of them, very well. It does a very poor job of modeling Merlin or the wizards of Earthsea.

Quote from: The Exploited.;973256While I like Wizards a lot especially the Thoth-Amon kind (I personally prefer the term Sorcerers). I've always been bugged about Wizards being rather limited (at the early levels).

But the one thing that really sticks out, for me at any rate, is that whole 'forgetting' the spell after it's cast. So, effectively you can only cast it once per day. Anyone else feel the same on this?

The second part of this thread is asking for advice. Have you got any ideas/suggestions on how to remedy this?

1) I was thinking of adding some kind of 'Magic Points' secondary attribute. Tied to Wisdom. I'm not saying that magic points are the best but it would eliminate some of my bugbears.
2) Or just let the players cast any spell they want as their level suggests. So, in essence, they could cast sleep twice a day, etc.
3) Give them an extra spell as their intelligence bonus suggests (I've seen this in a couple of OSR games already).
4) I think it's in Crypts and Things - There's a 'luck attribute' and you can roll on it to see if you can remember the spell you've just cast.

Last option: Or do I just tell myself to STFU and play as god intended.

Any advice or thoughts welcome!

Ta'!

5e solves your issue quite nicely. Prepared spells equal level plus Int modifer use how you will until your spell slots are out with cantrips worth a damn at will. 1st-2nd level wizard? She has 3-4 at will tricks and likely 5-6 1st level spells prepared spells to use 3-4 times. Useful but not a game changer in the least.

Quote from: DavetheLost;973983How many people arguing about "Vancian" magic in RPGs have actually read the Jack Vance stories in question?

Wizards don't "forget" spells after they cast them. The "Memorization" is a process of enchanting material components (yes, they are magic up ahead of time), and impressing magic energies upon the mind. When a spell is cast these magical energies are released. Each spell has a different energy pattern, so each spell use needs to be preselected and "programed" individually.

This is true, but I don't see how it changes anything. It's not like EGG could have put in his books, "this spell selection scheme is exactly like the magic in the Jack Vance novels of..." He wrote out rules. The whole 'memorization' and 'forgetting' bit is a cultural shorthand for those rules which isn't exactly accurate, but not in themselves a horrible interpretation.

Quote from: Marleycat;9740425e solves your issue quite nicely. Prepared spells equal level plus Int modifer use how you will until your spell slots are out with cantrips worth a damn at will. 1st-2nd level wizard? She has 3-4 at will tricks and likely 5-6 1st level spells prepared spells to use 3-4 times. Useful but not a game changer in the least.

True enough, sounds pretty close alright.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;974297This is true, but I don't see how it changes anything. It's not like EGG could have put in his books, "this spell selection scheme is exactly like the magic in the Jack Vance novels of..." He wrote out rules. The whole 'memorization' and 'forgetting' bit is a cultural shorthand for those rules which isn't exactly accurate, but not in themselves a horrible interpretation.

While Gygax was inspired by Jack Vance's description of magic the point was to have wizards in his Greyhawk campaign not to run a Dying Earth campaign. What people forget that  Gygax designed an initial version version of the magic system and then altered and tweaked throughout the campaign until he settled on the version that appeared in OD&D.

The magic system of OD&D is not a depiction of anything other than what worked in Gary's campaign. If a referee, like the OP, doesn't like how it work then he needs to do that process himself to come up with something that person feel works right for him.

For myself, I took the OD&D magic system added a ritual system where caster can cast spell as a 10 minute ritual in addition use a type of treasure called viz which is magic in physical form to allow him to cast spells but have it remained "memorized". I played a number of campaigns where I altered and tweaked my ideas, like the costs, and then wrote it.

Since "magic" is completely arbitrary a referee has a lot of leeway to come up with something that fits his mind's eye view of what it means.

Quote from: estar;974327While Gygax was inspired by Jack Vance's description of magic the point was to have wizards in his Greyhawk campaign not to run a Dying Earth campaign. What people forget that  Gygax designed an initial version version of the magic system and then altered and tweaked throughout the campaign until he settled on the version that appeared in OD&D.

The magic system of OD&D is not a depiction of anything other than what worked in Gary's campaign. If a referee, like the OP, doesn't like how it work then he needs to do that process himself to come up with something that person feel works right for him.

If what I said contradicts that, then I misspoke.