While I like Wizards a lot especially the Thoth-Amon kind (I personally prefer the term Sorcerers). I've always been bugged about Wizards being rather limited (at the early levels).

But the one thing that really sticks out, for me at any rate, is that whole 'forgetting' the spell after it's cast. So, effectively you can only cast it once per day. Anyone else feel the same on this?

The second part of this thread is asking for advice. Have you got any ideas/suggestions on how to remedy this?

1) I was thinking of adding some kind of 'Magic Points' secondary attribute. Tied to Wisdom. I'm not saying that magic points are the best but it would eliminate some of my bugbears.
2) Or just let the players cast any spell they want as their level suggests. So, in essence, they could cast sleep twice a day, etc.
3) Give them an extra spell as their intelligence bonus suggests (I've seen this in a couple of OSR games already).
4) I think it's in Crypts and Things - There's a 'luck attribute' and you can roll on it to see if you can remember the spell you've just cast.

Last option: Or do I just tell myself to STFU and play as god intended.

Any advice or thoughts welcome!

Ta'!

Quote from: The Exploited.;973256But the one thing that really sticks out, for me at any rate, is that whole 'forgetting' the spell after it's cast. So, effectively you can only cast it once per day. Anyone else feel the same on this?

Feel the same way about it sticking out? Yes. The decision to go with a pseudo-Vancian spellcasting system is definitely a defining choice early in the game, and one upon which tons of ink (real and digital) has been spilled. Are you asking whether we like it/dislike it? I think it is a perfectly valid and playable, if arbitrary, choice.

QuoteThe second part of this thread is asking for advice. Have you got any ideas/suggestions on how to remedy this?

What are we remedying?

Quote1) I was thinking of adding some kind of 'Magic Points' secondary attribute. Tied to Wisdom. I'm not saying that magic points are the best but it would eliminate some of my bugbears.
2) Or just let the players cast any spell they want as their level suggests. So, in essence, they could cast sleep twice a day, etc.
3) Give them an extra spell as their intelligence bonus suggests (I've seen this in a couple of OSR games already).
4) I think it's in Crypts and Things - There's a 'luck attribute' and you can roll on it to see if you can remember the spell you've just cast.

Spellpoint systems work fine, The ability not to have to choose which spells you think you will need at the beginning of the day will certainly effect the game balance. Fatigue points (or encounter-recharging abilities) are another option. The 'any spell, any time, but consequences' (such as done by Mage: the Ascension) is another option. My questions to you are:
1) What exact problem are you trying to fix? I've poked a little fun about this but I'm serious. You did not lay out what the problem was before asking for advice on fixing it.
2) What games other than OSR (by which I assume we are talking D&D and D&D-alikes) have you played?
3) How far afield are you willing to go? Are we sticking to a class-and-level based system? If yes, are the wizardly/Cleric spell divisions sacrosanct? And a wizard has access to the whole gamut of wizards spells (in general, they still have to find them and put them in their book, but all wizards can cast both divination and necromancy spells, for example)?

1. Look at it differently.  You're not really "memorizing and forgetting".  It's more like casting a ritual where the preparation is the first part and the actual casting is the second part.  Think of it as "holding and unleashing", where the amount of magic you can keep prepared gains as you gain in skill and power.  This makes a lot more sense when you use the AD&D "10(?) minutes per spell level" to memorize.
2. Freeball it.  Once they learn a spell, they have it.  Let them cast that many slots.  Or simply total the levels and use it as spell points.  They get in a big fight and the magic user wants to take his 3, 3, 2, 1 spell slots and dump into 9 Magic Missiles, do it.
3. Stay with #1 but let Magic-Users sacrifice HPs to cast if they don't have a spell prepared.  1d4 per level of spell.

Doing 1, 3 with Magic-Users and 2 with Clerics differentiates between the two and kind of makes it clear the power of the Magic-User comes from them and their spells, while the Clerics more flexible power is due to flowing from their faith and their god.

As our Durulz friend has pointed out, it would help if you narrowed down what bugs you the most and what your rough end goal is.  If you don't have one, and are just brainstorming, that's good too.

Apologies... If I wasn't clear. I thought the title was kind of self-explanatory in what I'd like to fix (or tighten up), no?

The problem for me is that I don't particularly like the idea of spells being forgotten (a la the Vancian magic system). In the same way, I don't like thieves only having 17% to do 'X' for their first few levels. But that another story...

My end goal is to tighten up my OSR game and fashion it in an away that suits me and the group.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;973260My questions to you are:
1) What exact problem are you trying to fix? I've poked a little fun about this but I'm serious. You did not lay out what the problem was before asking for advice on fixing it.
2) What games other than OSR (by which I assume we are talking D&D and D&D-alikes) have you played?
3) How far afield are you willing to go? Are we sticking to a class-and-level based system? If yes, are the wizardly/Cleric spell divisions sacrosanct? And a wizard has access to the whole gamut of wizards spells (in general, they still have to find them and put them in their book, but all wizards can cast both divination and necromancy spells, for example)?

1) Hopefully, I've answered that now, in my second post.
2) Way too many to list.
3) Not very... I'd still like to retain the old school vibe without some of its more cumbersome trappings if you will (cumbersome, in my opinion). So, I'm happy to stick to classes per se. Dividing or considering dividing cleric/wizard spells is somewhat beyond the scope of what I'm asking.

Spell slots are about resource management, which is a big part of what makes good rpg's good as games. So, we should all love them. But it's true that having to pre-select each at the start of the day is an irritating and unnecessary detail. Every D&D game I've played addressed this sort of 'sub-rule' by ignoring it. I.e., you can use your 3 2nd level spells on whatever 2nd level spells you have access to - the only thing you can't do is cast 4 of them.

Quote from: CRKrueger;9732631. Look at it differently.  You're not really "memorizing and forgetting".  It's more like casting a ritual where the preparation is the first part and the actual casting is the second part.  Think of it as "holding and unleashing", where the amount of magic you can keep prepared gains as you gain in skill and power.  This makes a lot more sense when you use the AD&D "10(?) minutes per spell level" to memorize.
2. Freeball it.  Once they learn a spell, they have it.  Let them cast that many slots.  Or simply total the levels and use it as spell points.  They get in a big fight and the magic user wants to take his 3, 3, 2, 1 spell slots and dump into 9 Magic Missiles, do it.
3. Stay with #1 but let Magic-Users sacrifice HPs to cast if they don't have a spell prepared.  1d4 per level of spell.

Doing 1, 3 with Magic-Users and 2 with Clerics differentiates between the two and kind of makes it clear the power of the Magic-User comes from them and their spells, while the Clerics more flexible power is due to flowing from their faith and their god.

As our Durulz friend has pointed out, it would help if you narrowed down what bugs you the most and what your rough end goal is.  If you don't have one and are just brainstorming, that's good too.

Thanks, mate. That's great.

I'm doing a bit of both really... Brainstorming and a bit of fixing (or tightening up really). And just looking to see what other people can add.

1) Yeah, this makes sense now. Even just 'reframing' the concept helps settle my nerves.
2) That's one of the ways I was thinking about it too - Use the slots that you have. It would make them a bit more powerful at the beginning as well. And more versatile.
3) I think that's a great idea! Fatigue in the way of hit point cost. That would stop people using ridiculously high spells all the time. This could be introduced at level three or something.

Ta'!

Quote from: Larsdangly;973269Spell slots are about resource management, which is a big part of what makes good rpg's good as games. So, we should all love them. But it's true that having to pre-select each at the start of the day is an irritating and unnecessary detail. Every D&D game I've played addressed this sort of 'sub-rule' by ignoring it. I.e., you can use your 3 2nd level spells on whatever 2nd level spells you have access to - the only thing you can't do is cast 4 of them.

I really like the spell slots idea as an abstraction of a Sorcerers limits.

So, I've no real issue with that per se. However, having to choose the spells for that day is a right pain. So, yes, that totally needs to go IMO... How did you generally house rule it?

Off the top of my head, I'd pretty much allow access to spells that you have in your grimoire. But of course, you'd have those limited slots.

Krueger's idea of hit point fatigue is great and would stop players taking the piss at higher levels.

Ta'.

In Microlite-20, it costs HP's to cast spells, but you start with more HP's.

Quote from: cranebump;973274In Microlite-20, it costs HP's to cast spells, but you start with more HP's.

That's true... That's what got me thinking of adding any HP penalty after third level or something like that (I'd have to test it a bit). At least the wizard would have a few at that stage. It would be gnarly at first level! Could you imagine...?

In my Majestic Wilderlands supplements I use a variant of the 4e ritual system. A magic user and cast any spell in his spell book as a ten minute ritual with a cost in components equal 10 times spell level squared. They are limited to casting rituals for spell level equal to HALF of the highest spell level they can cast rounded down. Cost can be gold or silver which I use.

I use this mechanic to flesh out a series of ritual only spell caster like the Runecaster, Artificer, and Theurgist. I use a variant of the 3.X sorercor system for another class called Wizards. They can cast less spells but are more flexible with the ones they do know.

Finally I explain that memorization is mental discipline that constructs a series of magical forms in ones mind. When a spell is cast mana is channeled into the form which creates the spell and destroys the form. Part of the meditation is using the spell book. The form is a magical construct in one's mind created by following the ritual inscribed in the spell book. The inscribing spell books in of itself is a magic ritual and the spell book is a minor magic item and a critical part of the memorization ritual.

Wizards opt for a more generalized system where forms are not attuned to specific spells but only to a spell's power level. Through training a Wizard affixes in his mind the partial forms of a number of spells based on his experience. These partial forms are permanent. The power forms are designed to be created from a memorized ritual that doesn't need a spell book.

Hope this helps.

Quote from: The Exploited.;973272Off the top of my head, I'd pretty much allow access to spells that you have in your grimoire. But of course, you'd have those limited slots.

This has its own consequences (in particular, massive incentive to search out new spells, murder/rob every wizard you run across, etc.) because each new spell you have in your book is one more option you have up at all times. This is not inherently a bad thing, but it might effect the shape of your game. 5e did a thing where you still have to pick a number of spells each morning that you were memorizing, but you were limited in casting based on your slots, not once per time you memorized the spell. I think it works fairly well, is similar to a lot of the fixes we tried for BECMI when we were dissatisfied with the default memorization scheme, and might be another option.

Quote from: The Exploited.;973256Any advice or thoughts welcome!

Ta'!

Our houserule since time out of mind has been that spellcasters can choose their spell to cast at the time of casting. So the slot system works a bit like a mana point system.
For my 2nd edition games, I have recently houseruled that wizards get extra spells similarly to cleric bonus spells. (Apparently that's how 3rd and Pathfinder have it as well.)

Quote from: The Exploited.;973256Anyone else feel the same on this?

And so it goes, like a corpse flower bloom, the impulse to trash game-balance is born anew.

Quote from: The Exploited.;973256Or do I just tell myself to STFU and play as god intended.

Satori.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;973296

And so it goes, like a corpse flower bloom, the impulse to trash game-balance is born anew.


Satori.

Maaatt Daaamon.

Silly human... That's why there would be hp loss, or some form of countermeasure, etc. Did you net read the posts.:rolleyes:

Plus, your game balance would not be the same as my game balance.