Quote from: RPGPundit;444584The main thing heroes have to know, in order to be heroes, is How to Die.  For that, its required that they be allowed to do so.

RPGPundit

...but they don't have to.

 LOVE the stories where one of the good guys is more than willing to sacrifice hherself or himself to let the rest of the group escape or achieve victory - but at the last mminute or second a fellow 'good guy' tries some3thing off-the-wall that works and they all live.

 OR 'Good guy' character gets shot - and thinks they are ded. Last words are said, then they open their eyes. Yep, they were hit but the bullet hit the bullet proff vest or was a through & through. Other Good Guy character says "Guess today wasn't your day after all.  We're stuck with you for a while, and you still owe me 20 credits." (Obviously a TRAVELLER or STAR TREK game session.....)


In an RPG that might show up as that shockingly good critical success roll in favor of the player's character.


- Ed C.

Fair play K, but the two most memorable heroic endings I've had in my gaming both involved TPKs.

In one the PCs, warriors and heroes of an ice age tribe, chose to give their lives causing enough damage to a rival tribe that it could never trouble theirs again. They went into battle determined to keep fighting until they were all dead and to sell their lives dearly.

They took down many times their own number and broke the enemy's power. Their tribe went on to greatness thanks to them. Brilliant ending.

Another was an early Vampire game. The PCs discovered that the vamps were planning to trigger a nuclear apocalypse so as to slow down technological progress and get humanity back under control (a plot later used in a tv series coincidentally enough). The PCs went in to the bunker being used by the vampires and in the course of the final battle sealed it behind themselves. Not intentionally I grant, but permanently all the same.

The game ended with three of five PCs dead and the vampires defeated. The final scene was the last two PCs grinning at each other tired and bloody as the air ran out, knowing they'd saved the world. Nobody else would ever know. They didn't need them to.

Endings like that are hard to beat. Mere survival wouldn't have been nearly as cool.

Quote from: Cranewings;444466See, I'm your opposite in that regard. I think those sorts of characters are the most boring.

Interesting

But you can appreciate where I'm coming from? When you're scruples depend on what is going on you get to portray the full range from good to evil.

Quote from: Koltar;444123In the campaigns you GMs run - how often do you let players BE Heroes?

If they want to go that path, I'm not stopping them.

QuoteEnjoy the temporary adulation and fame of being Heroes?
Or as Whedon TV shows put it 'Big Damn Heroes' ?

If they deserve it, of course. If he PCs do something to be notorious, they will get the notoriety.

Quote from: D-503;444622Fair play K, but the two most memorable heroic endings I've had in my gaming both involved TPKs.

Few things beat death when it comes to drama.

Quote from: Ian Warner;444646Interesting

But you can appreciate where I'm coming from? When you're scruples depend on what is going on you get to portray the full range from good to evil.

I get ya. Actually, most of my players agree with you.

Personally, I think it is more interesting to play good and evil characters that make inefficient decisions because of their attitudes

No, its true that they don't have to die, but they have to be in a situation where death is likely (and the player knows that it CAN happen, not that he has "script immunity").  Those are often the most memorable moments in gaming.

RPGpundit

Additional questions related to this concept or thought discussion.

In your campaigns and games:

Can an Android be a Hero?

Can an animal be a hero?

How about a 'half-breed' ?
(half-elf, half-Orc, Half-Klingon, Half-minbarri...)


A former Criminal ? - can they be a Hero!?
(Think Sawyer on "LOST")


- Ed C.

Hero is as hero does... and the doing doesn't necessitate survival once it's done. All the more heroic if going in you know you won't survive and no one will ever hear about it.

Quote from: Koltar;447870Additional questions related to this concept or thought discussion.

In your campaigns and games:

Can an Android be a Hero?

Can an animal be a hero?

How about a 'half-breed' ?
(half-elf, half-Orc, Half-Klingon, Half-minbarri...)


A former Criminal ? - can they be a Hero!?
(Think Sawyer on "LOST")

- Ed C.

Yes to all of the above. Why couldn't they be?

The difference between a fictional hero and a fictional fool is that the hero somehow survives the ordeal.

As a GM I provide situations, the players choose if they want to be heroes.  I don't think I can state it more honestly or simply then that.

In my Exalted campaign I used to allow for lots of "big" Good vs Evil type situations, but surprisingly, while the players would often step up to help people, they were morally ambiguous enough at other times that I'm not sure I could call them real heroes.  

And in my current campaign, the moral questions that come up are pretty complex, since while it's Tolkien-esque, it's a dirty, medieval type world with difficult problems to deal with, and not many easy solutions.

Frex, one of the players has an elven character who absolutely believes people deserve second chances.  Another PC is a dwarf who had a falling out with his clan, and so it's become the elf's mission to help him win back the favor of his people.  But they've come into a situation where the elf PC's brother, the son of a councilman and a strong political leader, had convinced his old military unit to attempt a coup and assassinate certain elven political leaders.  They're now attempting to track down the estranged elven sibling in order to convince him to end his coup or to take him by force.  One elven leader, the father of the two elves, has been killed in the infighting.

So in this situation, does the estranged brother really deserve a second chance?  Is it right and just to kill him, or should he be handed over for trial?  If he is executed or imprisoned, does that really jive with the PC's belief that people deserve second chances, especially if the brother is brought to true grief and repentance for his sins?  How far does this belief in "second chances" go, and what would a hero do in this situation?

Obviously I know my own answers to those questions, but I have no idea what the player of the elven PC will do.  Can he be both a hero to his people and a savior of his brother?  Only the player's decisions and the progression of play can tell.