Quote from: Christmas ApeHonestly, I think the bulk of RPG players out there - not on the internet, but actually playing games - really are playing for fun. They enjoy it the way they enjoy video games, or comics, or a pick-up game of sports, or whatever else they do with themselves as a group. Some people you like, an activity you enjoy, and something to snack on; let the kick-ass begin. Killing dragons with swords is pretty kick-ass, which is why D&D sells well.

Most probably. And it's not like there's something wrong with that; if it produces the rewards they want, they're doing something right.

But if we want to cover the whole spectrum of the hobby, we'll have to cover the other areas as well. Wheter this is worthwhile or not, depends on the task at hand. With theory jargon, it's probably good idea to cover pretty much every angle. For lot's of other things, probably not.

Quote from: Christmas ApeThat said, I don't by any means go out looking to explore deep psychological and emotional themes in my gaming, but if one can get through I'm impressed.

Ditto. I've done enough soul searching in my time to not need to seek it out at the game table, although if a session happens to head that way (which is rare) I won't jump up and run away screaming The Forgies are Coming! The Forgies are Coming! Lock up your women and put gaurds on the Fun!

Quote from: MertenYes. But what if I have enjoyed a game with a heavy heart? If the game was such that did not have light-hearted pleasure or amusement, or playfulness or good humour? And if, during the gime, I did not find the scenes enjoyable but rather distressing? Even if, in the end, the game was meaningful and provided plenty of food for thought?

If you told me you played a game that had you feeling truely heavy-hearted, I would not believe you. If you then convinced me I would then recommend therapy. Yes, subject matter in a RPG can be thought-provoking, even intellectually challenging, and even mildly emotional, but to feel deep, meaningful emotion over a fictional game is IMO wasteful and silly. St. Jude's Children's Hospital gives me a heavy heart. The war in Iraq gives me a heavy heart. Genocide in Africa, crack babies, and thinking of my still-born daughter (who would be 4 years old now) give me a heavy heart. An RPG doesn't even come close. If you are finding deep emotional experiences in RPGs I would say you need to get out and live a little more.

Quote from: Christmas ApeIf I feel anything from a game other than amusement about playing that game, I'm pretty god damned impressed with the sheer strength of the roleplaying involved and the fact I'm that immersed (despite likely being GM). If it's grief, or joy, or sorrow, or empathy, if the contents of the game have produced an impact on me, it is a good game.

That said, I don't by any means go out looking to explore deep psychological and emotional themes in my gaming, but if one can get through I'm impressed.

I agree with you here very much. I'm not saying I don't feel any emotion at all while playing RPGs, but to call it "heavy-hearted" is way to strong a label for anything I've ever seen in a fictional medium. Why would anyone deliberately depress themselves? It makes no sense at all. If, that is, it was true depression, and not just mild sadness moderated by the knowledge that the source is fictional.

Quote from: SigmundIf you told me you played a game that had you feeling truely heavy-hearted, I would not believe you. If you then convinced me I would then recommend therapy. Yes, subject matter in a RPG can be thought-provoking, even intellectually challenging, and even mildly emotional, but to feel deep, meaningful emotion over a fictional game is IMO wasteful and silly. St. Jude's Children's Hospital gives me a heavy heart. The war in Iraq gives me a heavy heart. Genocide in Africa, crack babies, and thinking of my still-born daughter (who would be 4 years old now) give me a heavy heart. An RPG doesn't even come close. If you are finding deep emotional experiences in RPGs I would say you need to get out and live a little more.

I think I've seen my share of living and frankly, I'm not too eager too meet heavy-hearted stuff in my real life. I don't think the issues I've been dealing with roleplaying can even be compared to the stuff you mentioned, but it's a good medium to explore some emotional and rough issues. I wouldn't call it wasteful or silly, I'd call something similar but a bit more involving that watching a movie with emotional and rough issues. It's also a good medium to explore positive emotions, and adventure and whatever.

What's rewarding and meaningful to someone is a matter of taste. I get my kicks from mixing relationship stuff, dialogue, emotions with what ever other stuff there is in roleplaying. Some people want other stuff, as do I, from time to time. That's that.

Quote from: MertenWhat's rewarding and meaningful to someone is a matter of taste. I get my kicks from mixing relationship stuff, dialogue, emotions with what ever other stuff there is in roleplaying. Some people want other stuff, as do I, from time to time. That's that.

So you're saying this is fun for you. Sure, I can buy that.

Quote from: SigmundSo you're saying this is fun for you. Sure, I can buy that.

We'll end up comparing semantics if we go down this path. I wouldn't call it fun, but hell, it's not an issue worth debating in a long thread.

Edit: Semantics, not sematics.

thousands of counselors across the country (and probably world) use some form of role playing (sometimes with dice, sometimes without) in order to explore deep and meaningful issues with individuals and groups. I doubt they'd agree with you calling it wasteful and silly.

Quote from: MertenWe'll end up comparing semantics if we go down this path. I wouldn't call it fun, but hell, it's not an issue worth debating in a long thread.

Edit: Semantics, not sematics.

No need, I understood you perfectly.

Quote from: James McMurraythousands of counselors across the country (and probably world) use some form of role playing (sometimes with dice, sometimes without) in order to explore deep and meaningful issues with individuals and groups. I doubt they'd agree with you calling it wasteful and silly.

Dice or not, that is not gaming, that is therapy. I'm very familiar with it, as I've done it myself.

Nah, it's still gaming. Maybe not your particular brand of gaming, but gaming nonetheless. It's possible to have "mindless" fun and think deep thoughts in the same evening, sometimes even the same minute.

"Roleplaying" with a therapist is therapy, "roleplaying" with a game is a game. They are two different things with some superficial similarities.

"All roleplaying is group therapy" was said, I believe, by Clinton Nixon (one of them Forgers, anyhow). Guess what? He ain't a psychologist.

It would be bad for a psychologist's patient to think of the roleplaying they're doing as a "game" - an activity purely for amusement. It'd also be bad - and unhealthily dangerous - for a bunch of gamers to think of the roleplaying they're doing as "therapy."

It's like comparing butchers with surgeons. They have some of the same skills, and there are superficial similarities, but the different aims they have give them different results, and those aims are incompatible. I would not let a butcher attempt surgery on me, nor would I ask a surgeon to portion up a side of beef; likewise, I would not let a psychologist tell me to start rolling dice to decide what to do next (nobody quote The Diceman, for fuck's sake) and still less would I let a gamer try to use roleplaying as therapy on me.

Quote from: JimBobOzIt'd also be bad - and unhealthily dangerous - for a bunch of gamers to think of the roleplaying they're doing as "therapy."

As a point to back this up...  Catharsis as entertainment has a long history.

Some of that history is very good.  Some of it is seriously fucked up, and did the audience no good at all.  Roleplaying as a hobby ranges from "totally fun" to "really boring and annoying, possibly a haven for social maladjustment".

So, by making that change a group fails to raise the "good" end of the bar to any significant degree, while dropping the "bad" end of the bar right through the damn floor.

Not a tradeoff I dig.

A game that, by it's quality of play, moves me, that's fucking awesome - ditto for movies, and other forms of entertainment.  A game engineered to step wholly outside of the realm of entertainment, whether you call it 'fun', 'satisfaction', or 'ansa dansa mo go fop', is a dumb idea.

I have never seen nor read such a game, and hope that I never will.

Quote from: James McMurrayNah, it's still gaming. Maybe not your particular brand of gaming, but gaming nonetheless. It's possible to have "mindless" fun and think deep thoughts in the same evening, sometimes even the same minute.

It's not gaming, no matter how much you want it to be.

"Mindless" fun and thinking "deep thoughts" would be mutually exclusive I would think. Anyway "deep thoughts" and "heavy hearts" are not the same thing. As I previously posted:

Quote from: SigmundYes, subject matter in a RPG can be thought-provoking, even intellectually challenging, and even mildly emotional

Thinking isn't the issue, feeling is. I would go so far as to say the whole point of RPGs is thinking. It is a thinking person's hobby, I would say. There is really no problem with feeling even, during a game, but to say you're gaming (as in Roleplaying Gaming, with friends, at one of their houses, with pizza and sodas on the table) with a "heavy heart" (aka deep sadness, depression) is either sad or silly. RPGs might provoke in me a mild empathetic feeling for my (or someone else's) character, and maybe even an npc in a well written and gmed adventure. The feeling will quickly be replaced by absolute joy when I notice my 1yo son has discovered the comedic potential of bonking mommy on the knee with an empty soda bottle, giggling like a little fool all the while.

Since you brought it up, I can say from direct experience that even RPT (roleplaying therapy) does not, in and of itself, provoke real emotion. It is simply the finger pointing at the moon, designed to highlight the real emotional issues and bring them to the surface so they can be identified and addressed. It is conducted by a trained therapist, in a safe environment for the patient. Calling them the same is either ignorance or blatant deception.

I've seen some gamers use rpgs as a distraction, which is the closet to rpgs as a therapeutic device I've witnessed - which depending on the problem they are experiencing, is not necessarily a good thing.

Even as a distraction it's always been about the fun, which I assume means they are deriving some enjoyment from the whole process which is a temporary reprieve from their problems.

To be honest, in my games, if my players are coming for something other than entertainment, I'd be a little worried.

Regards,
David R