Quote from: J ArcaneEspecially this newfound love affair with pervasive CCTV monitoring.

It's not as bad as all that, although we are the most monitored nation in the world. Fortunately there's nowhere near enough people to actually watch the footage.

Fuck you, I started that thread!

Actually, I like Clerics even if I have a few issues with them. I started the thread to discuss class mechanics and flavor a little bit but I never imagined that it would grow to such rediculous proportions. It's mostly been taken over by one or two people on each side of the 'debate' who keep saying the same things over and over.

I can't imagine why they would continue to do that. It really does boggle my mind. About 600+ posts into the damn thing, someone responded to my OP, which I had hashed out fully hundreds of posts ago. I can't blame him for not wanting that whole waste of space, though, even if I had to pretty much officially announce that I wasn't participating until someone said something new... (I think I can safely say that the discussion is over for me.)

But Clerics can be cool. They're not really very interesting without the religion, ethos, or philosophy, but with it they can be really cool characters. I'd like a little more diversity, but additional splats typically help. They're a very strong class. Mechanically, I think I like the Cloistered Cleric more for the religious bent and I'd like a beefed up Paladin for the martial bent.

Quote from: BalbinusOoh, I'll suggest that to Dan if he runs more RC, which hopefully he will.

It allows for a bit more characterisation when it comes to fighting styles. I had a lot of fun playing a Fighter with a staff (two handed) that did 1d8+1. A Cleric with a battleaxe also hits the spot.

Quote from: SettembriniI think Wee Jas is a pretty cool Godess to worship and evangelize over.

Yeah, but mechanically a cleric is a bad choice to do that. Even with the Magic domain. While a god like St. Cuthbert is really made for the run-of-the-mill cleric, god(esse)s like Wee Jas would profit from something a wee bit different... Not for everything, as the fighting arm of the church, sent out to put down undead would probably boil down to something very close to the cleric anyway. That's why I liked the priest/cleric split in 2E.
3E wouldn't be totally wrong, though. For the magic/vanity aspect, the CHA-based Favored Soul could work, and the archivist is quite nice, too.

This is what I see as a general problem with the implementation. It's not flexible enough to bring decent priests of different divinities into play. And as multi-classing gyps the casting, it isn't a very good option for most campaigns, too.

Something like the D20 Modern, Grim Tales or Star Wars SAGA talent trees would be nice. A more customized priest class is direly needed.

Quote from: SettembriniClerics rock.
They are idiosyncratic to D&D.

Granted. I'm generally not too happy with a divine/arcane split, but it's just one of the holy cows of D&D -- and quite alright for the D&D-archetypical dungeon adventures. But with current editions trying to be a bit more generic, better option for other priest types would be quite welcome.

And speaking of tradition, the current magical power level of the cleric is stepping away from previous editions. More spells, potent buffs, 9 spell levels... The classic, idiosyncratic group balance has been slightly altered.

Oh hell yeah, the religion is the most important aspect of the character.  

My most interesting clerics were ones where I struck it on my own to some extent in finding a mythology and religion for them to follow.

Partially, my tendency to get creative when it comes to religious background comes from my love of Death clerics.  I'm fascinated by this idea of treating necromancy with a more neutral tone than is so often done, and to that end I've created at least one whole religious group to justify a Death cleric's background as sometihng other than "worships nasty evil god".

Quote from: J ArcaneOddly, with Tony Blair out, I'm tentatively curious about how things start turning over there, as I've long considered a move to Britain, but the state of the government has been moving in even scarier directions than the one over here.

Especially this newfound love affair with pervasive CCTV monitoring.

If you move to London we'll make sure there's a chair with your name on it.

We'll even let you play a cleric, even if we're not playing D&D...

Who's the FR goddess that's naked a lot?  Sune?

I'll take that baptism.  Brought my own mace!

I've played all of the archtypes.  Currently, since returning to gaming a few years ago, my main D&D character is a Cleric. I love it. In the beginning, I chose it because I didn't want to be "just" a fighter (had done that quite a bit in the old days), and it seemed the most straightforward approach in a rule system I had to learn.

I have to admit, however, that playing in Living Greyhawk - specifically in the Verbobonc region - Clerics can be quite intriguing and far more complex than I had anticipated.

And the change in 3.5 allows some clerics to use swords, other to use maces - it now all depends on the subject of your worship.  Which makes more sense.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Who's the FR goddess that's naked a lot?  Sune?

I'll take that baptism.  Brought my own mace!

Ewwww....

Well, wishy-washy love goddesses. I'd rather, erm, worship Eilistraee, who apparently does nothing but dancing underneath the moonlight. With a big sword. Now, that's a credo I can whole-heartedly support. Disrobe, dance, decapitate...

I like the cleric a lot. Even more in 3 & 3.5 ed than previous ones. Domains give a hell of a lot of replay value in playing one. We did something similar in ad&d years ago. I remember playing a cleric of Thor who got spiritual hammer as a 1st level spell. Woot! If anything, i dislike the Fighter. Without innumerable splatbooks that give you the feat variance, it doesn't support replay of the class as well as the cleric. Now i come to think of it, i don't think any class has the replay value of the cleric. Perhaps that's why i like them so much.

Crap, I completely forgot about the domains aspect. Right on, One Horse.

And as for devine/arcane.  I, too, never understood the explicit difference.  I mean I get the implied difference (one is finding a way to break "normal" physical rules through some arcane knowledge, the other is a way to do it granted by the power of your worshipped deity). But why, then, can't you get the same effect? Why couldn't a worshipper of the Sun god get fireball spells?

I do notice that in 3.5 (and IIRC to some extent in 2nd ed) there are many spells wherein the description is the same, and both arcane and divine spell casters have access (just at different levels).

So it might be that it's another vestigial aspect that's slowly being phased out.

Quote from: James J SkachSo it might be that it's another vestigial aspect that's slowly being phased out.

Nope, don't think so. This goes beyond tradition. Divine/arcane isn't the big deal. Healing/Damaging is. You can give the cleric access to every wizard spell and it won't change a thing. The other way 'round won't work. The team play assumptions of D&D (and lots of other games, especially the more tactical MMORPGs) demand a dedicated healer. The fact that this healer does the work of the gods and can fight a bit is legacy, yes, but giving other casters powerful healing would change quite a bit. Don't think D&D will ever do that...

Count me in as one of the "cleric lover" crowd.  Besides my Wild Mage, a cleric was the most fun character type I ever played (but being a LE Cleric of Nerull is a bit of a stretch in a mildly goody-goody group and I know today that there would be nearly no way in hell that kind of thing would actually work outside an adventure or two, but I digress).

As far as the sword thing goes, wasn't there some kind of bit written by TSR at some point (maybe in Dragon?) which stated that the weapons used by a Cleric could be reflective of the weapons which may have been used by their diety?

Either way, I loves me some Cleric.

Quote from: DangerCount me in as one of the "cleric lover" crowd.  Besides my Wild Mage, a cleric was the most fun character type I ever played (but being a LE Cleric of Nerull is a bit of a stretch in a mildly goody-goody group and I know today that there would be nearly no way in hell that kind of thing would actually work outside an adventure or two, but I digress).

As far as the sword thing goes, wasn't there some kind of bit written by TSR at some point (maybe in Dragon?) which stated that the weapons used by a Cleric could be reflective of the weapons which may have been used by their diety?

Either way, I loves me some Cleric.

I forget where it's stated specifically, but in 3.X, you get proficiency with your deity's favored weapon automatically, and I think weapon Focus if you already have the proficiency.

So if your God has a terrible swift sword, so can your cleric.

Quote from: J ArcaneI forget where it's stated specifically, but in 3.X, you get proficiency with your deity's favored weapon automatically, and I think weapon Focus if you already have the proficiency.

Nope. If you take the War domain, you'll get Focus and (if neccesary) proficiency, but that's about it.