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Author Topic: From WOTC to Hasbro...  (Read 12846 times)

S'mon

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Re: From WOTC to Hasbro...
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2022, 03:38:29 AM »
Greetings!

Yeah, Mistwell! That's right. Come to think of it--I can't think of anyone here who isn't married or has a girlfriend. Maybe a bare few don't. Everyone else though seems to be doing just fine with women.

"Incel". *Laughing* What a moron.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well I'm divorced (yaay!), a father (with equal custody), and I ignored my ex girlfriend from 2019-2020 when she PM'd & tried to get back with me last week. Does that make me a VolCel?  ;D

S'mon

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Re: From WOTC to Hasbro...
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2022, 03:48:58 AM »
The big question is - how does the 5e dropoff compare to other edition dropoffs?

5e actually has been holding up very well AFAICT - it has great 'legs', which seems to have been part of the (Mearls-led) plan 2012-14. While I don't think Crawford's recent messing around with 5e has helped sales, I doubt it has impacted sales much either. I don't think his more Woke recent material has sold particularly well, but I don't think that has harmed the overall bottom line very much yet either. While a grognard like me gets upset over the removal of racial attribute bonuses, I don't think that kind of thing has any impact on new players.

I do think that Woke makes everything dreary and that this ultimately has a repellent effect on the mass market. But 5e was not particularly Woke at inception, and has a lot of momentum. I think Crawford has helped initiate a very slow gradual decline, I don't think stuff like Strixhaven is selling very well, but I would not expect to see a big drop off for several years on current trajectory. If Crawford pushes Woke too hard then the 2024 re-release may not do as well as expected. But whether Hasbro will push a course correction even then, I don't know.
I do think that compared to a mass market corporation like Disney, a large proportion of WotC's customers are likely more accepting of Woke elements. But still, there are very few SJWs in real life, and people play D&D at the table to have fun, not to virtue signal. So it can certainly go too far even for WotC.

S'mon

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Re: From WOTC to Hasbro...
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2022, 03:51:56 AM »
The big question is - how does the 5e dropoff compare to other edition dropoffs? I don't know that directly. The WotC stockholder profit reports sound quite positive. Do you have other information sources on sales, Omega?

Off course you're going to ignore or pretend to not know WotC's bread and butter is MtG and not D&D.

As I said, I don't have direct evidence. However, it sounds like your premise is that WotC are completely incompetent and losing tons of money stupidly in their D&D business, while making huge profits in the MtG business. That seems less likely to me than their being at least reasonably competent in their D&D marketing.

It used to be true that MTG dominated D&D, but that has not been true for several years, as Mistwell will no doubt explain with much gloating.  ;D

jeff37923

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Re: From WOTC to Hasbro...
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2022, 05:05:46 AM »
The gist of the thread, is that the person who will be running Hasbro really soon; is the same person who was leading WOTC as they undertook the wokification of D&D 5E, the rewrite of their past content, and the demonization of traditional D&D lore.

Almost everything they did involved MTG.

I mean what is so fucking hilarious about this thread is people who routinely claim, "Get Woke Go Broke" is a real thing are simultaneously trying to argue that WOTC - which has done INCREDIBLY well in recent years, far better than Hasbro itself - is also too woke and going broke because of it.

I don't even think you fuckers keep track of which positions you take anymore.

Spoiler: They don't keep track, and they also don't care if they're correct or not, they just want a place to put their own special brand of incel virtue signalling and this place offers it for them.

I routinely come here to get a full bore view of what is being said in unmoderated disussion groups and I am frequenly entertained by the dumbest fucking takes in the world by doing so such as all the bitching and crying over how things are going woke and how they somehow think that their insular reactionary bubble clearly MUST represent the majority opinion even in the face of proof that WotC and D&D is doing better as a gaming brand than literally any other gaming IP in history with the sole exception of Pokemon... which WotC is also responsible for kickstarting.

Obvious troll is obvious.
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palaeomerus

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Re: From WOTC to Hasbro...
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2022, 09:32:08 AM »
I'm sure the "wizard college prom, hot mess, coffee shop, good-drow, bonus-less heritage, combat wheelchair, in castle Seattle with no slavery" crowd are mature vital fecund virile independent minded people who find the cultivation, formation, and maintenance of close intimate relationships to be very easy, notwithstanding the prevalence of sexual misconduct accusations and rather heavy promotion of safe-space player protection paperwork by the publisher.

How could it be otherwise? They have a youtube show.
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Jam The MF

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Re: From WOTC to Hasbro...
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2022, 04:23:28 PM »
The big question is - how does the 5e dropoff compare to other edition dropoffs?

5e actually has been holding up very well AFAICT - it has great 'legs', which seems to have been part of the (Mearls-led) plan 2012-14. While I don't think Crawford's recent messing around with 5e has helped sales, I doubt it has impacted sales much either. I don't think his more Woke recent material has sold particularly well, but I don't think that has harmed the overall bottom line very much yet either. While a grognard like me gets upset over the removal of racial attribute bonuses, I don't think that kind of thing has any impact on new players.

I do think that Woke makes everything dreary and that this ultimately has a repellent effect on the mass market. But 5e was not particularly Woke at inception, and has a lot of momentum. I think Crawford has helped initiate a very slow gradual decline, I don't think stuff like Strixhaven is selling very well, but I would not expect to see a big drop off for several years on current trajectory. If Crawford pushes Woke too hard then the 2024 re-release may not do as well as expected. But whether Hasbro will push a course correction even then, I don't know.
I do think that compared to a mass market corporation like Disney, a large proportion of WotC's customers are likely more accepting of Woke elements. But still, there are very few SJWs in real life, and people play D&D at the table to have fun, not to virtue signal. So it can certainly go too far even for WotC.


Damn.  What a well written, level headed response. 

I suppose as long as the content of the core books stays close to the original product offering; it's possible that the recent goofiness in current releases, won't impact the core sales too much?  Perhaps I was wrong?

It will be interesting to see how much they tinker with the proven recipe, when the new core books are released in 2024.
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

Mistwell

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Re: From WOTC to Hasbro...
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2022, 07:30:42 PM »
I mean what is so fucking hilarious about this thread is people who routinely claim, "Get Woke Go Broke" is a real thing are simultaneously trying to argue that WOTC - which has done INCREDIBLY well in recent years, far better than Hasbro itself - is also too woke and going broke because of it.

I don't even think you fuckers keep track of which positions you take anymore.

1: But are they doing as well now that they have started fucking with everything as they did on 5e's release?

No.

Yes. UNQUESTIONABLY yes. We know this, with certainty. It's doing WAY WAY WAY better than when 5e was released. We have solid quarterly reports on that, which are covered by FTC truth in statement reports. Their total D&D sales per year have gone WAY up over time. They JUST had their biggest year ever, and the year prior to that was also a biggest year ever to date.

That you think it's doing worse now than at the beginning of 5e just shows once again the people who post here have no fucking idea what's actually going on in the RPG world. It would be pretty fucking impossible to be under the belief it's doing worse now than at the beginning of 5e if you were doing anything other than living under a metaphorical RPG rock.

I also think the people who post here just don't even think about digital sales anymore. Which is ironic since for indie games digital sales are the gold standard and indie games are discussed a ton here. But when it comes to WOTC, I think that thought just goes right out of people's minds.

At the launch of D&D 5E; there were 3 core books, a 2 volume adventure, and the Starter Set to drive numbers.  Many other adventure books have released in the numerous years since; plus 2 additional monster manuals, a handful of setting books, a handful of rules expansion books, a new boxed adventure for new players, multiple DM Screens, and more.  Just looking at print sales alone, there is now an entire catalog of offerings on the market.  I'm sure "total" book sales numbers might be higher right now, than they were at the first launch of 5E; but what about comparing just the sales numbers of the core 3 books over time?  That's a better indicator of the growth of the player base.

The PHB, MM, and DMG sales numbers indicate the growth of the player base.  At least the serious players, anyway.

No not total sales, just per-year sales. Per-year sales have been higher each year. Of course the sales of the three core books should go down over time - you'd literally have to more than double your total player base every year to have core book sales go up every year and that's impossible to do for that many years - you're saying they'd have to have exponential growth for 8 years to demonstrate success? What's not impossible is to increase your player base every year and sell more books to your existing player base every year - which is what they've done.

Jaeger

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Re: From WOTC to Hasbro...
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2022, 07:51:46 PM »
5e actually has been holding up very well AFAICT - it has great 'legs', which seems to have been part of the (Mearls-led) plan 2012-14. While I don't think Crawford's recent messing around with 5e has helped sales, I doubt it has impacted sales much either. I don't think his more Woke recent material has sold particularly well, but I don't think that has harmed the overall bottom line very much yet either. While a grognard like me gets upset over the removal of racial attribute bonuses, I don't think that kind of thing has any impact on new players.

I do think that Woke makes everything dreary and that this ultimately has a repellent effect on the mass market. But 5e was not particularly Woke at inception, and has a lot of momentum. I think Crawford has helped initiate a very slow gradual decline, I don't think stuff like Strixhaven is selling very well, but I would not expect to see a big drop off for several years on current trajectory. If Crawford pushes Woke too hard then the 2024 re-release may not do as well as expected. But whether Hasbro will push a course correction even then, I don't know.

I do think that compared to a mass market corporation like Disney, a large proportion of WotC's customers are likely more accepting of Woke elements. But still, there are very few SJWs in real life, and people play D&D at the table to have fun, not to virtue signal. So it can certainly go too far even for WotC.

This is correct.

IMHO 5e has not quite hit its peak.

It took Dr. Who about 10 years from its ratings peak to get to the state where nobody watches the show anymore. It took Marvel and DC comics a similar timeframe to put themselves in the gutter from their relative highs. (This was gone over in past threads.)

5e is in an interesting place in that its latest stuff has not sold as well as past material, and it is far enough in its edition cycle that a little bit of a decline is to be expected. Yet we know that the 50th is two years out and that will be a big deal for D&D.

5e will enjoy a bit of a bump before the decline resumes. And as the current Devs continue to slowly turn up the woke dial they will both hasten the decline, and IMHO; render themselves unable to properly service their core fanbase.

The interesting parallel to track right now is the Fate of WoW / Blizzard. WoW was the undisputed MMO king for years, but has recently been overtaken by the Final Fantasy MMO...

WoW is not as far along in its journey to ignominy as superhero comics and Dr. Who, but the parallels in company behavior between the D&D devs, and WoW devs are very interesting...


...
I mean what is so fucking hilarious about this thread is people who routinely claim, "Get Woke Go Broke" is a real thing are simultaneously trying to argue that WOTC - which has done INCREDIBLY well in recent years, far better than Hasbro itself - is also too woke and going broke because of it.

I don't even think you fuckers keep track of which positions you take anymore.


Being a disingenuous Liar again...

You know full well that the trajectory of "get woke, go broke" is an arc, not a sharp fall off a cliff, from our debates where you were taken to school.

I can post links to refresh your memory.

But I realize that this will be par for the course going forward, as having chronic selective amnesia, and willfully misrepresenting peoples positions are the only arrows you have left in your quiver...
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 09:48:06 PM by Jaeger »
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S'mon

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Re: From WOTC to Hasbro...
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2022, 02:31:53 AM »
WoW is not as far along in its journey to ignominy as superhero comics and Dr. Who

Definitely agree. I'd put the inflexion point at 2018 (ca Waterdeep: Dragon Heist) and the Woke WoTC hectoring has remained mild compared to the really hostile hectoring of Doctor Who or Marvel Comics. The latter two are full of stuff about the evils of straight white men, there's very little explicitly hostile material like that in the WoTC products. The bigger problem is more the way Woke is hostile to actual conflict - to adventure. To dangerous villains that can actually win. To taking players (or readers, or viewers) away from everyday life into a heightened reality. For Woke, everything is Current Year, always and forever. That's the stench that afflicts Marvel & (more recently) DC comics, that ruined Doctor Who even for liberal fans, and is now afflicting WoTC.

Jam The MF

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Re: From WOTC to Hasbro...
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2022, 05:31:58 AM »
Greetings!

Yeah, Mistwell! That's right. Come to think of it--I can't think of anyone here who isn't married or has a girlfriend. Maybe a bare few don't. Everyone else though seems to be doing just fine with women.

"Incel". *Laughing* What a moron.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well I'm divorced (yaay!), a father (with equal custody), and I ignored my ex girlfriend from 2019-2020 when she PM'd & tried to get back with me last week. Does that make me a VolCel?  ;D

I have been married for more than 30 years, to my first wife.  I have kids and grandkids.  I'm currently employed, and I have been at my present job for more than 5 years now.  Many of the critics who post, don't know what the hell they are talking about.
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

Eirikrautha

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Re: From WOTC to Hasbro...
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2022, 06:46:45 AM »
Greetings!

Yeah, Mistwell! That's right. Come to think of it--I can't think of anyone here who isn't married or has a girlfriend. Maybe a bare few don't. Everyone else though seems to be doing just fine with women.

"Incel". *Laughing* What a moron.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well I'm divorced (yaay!), a father (with equal custody), and I ignored my ex girlfriend from 2019-2020 when she PM'd & tried to get back with me last week. Does that make me a VolCel?  ;D

I have been married for more than 30 years, to my first wife.  I have kids and grandkids.  I'm currently employed, and I have been at my present job for more than 5 years now.  Many of the critics who post, don't know what the hell they are talking about.

Actually, they know exactly what they are talking about.  They are just unconstrained by facts.  Their objective is to have their ideas win (note "their ideas" and not "the best ideas" or "those ideas most closely corresponding to reality").  Therefore, it doesn't matter if what they say about you, me, or Pundit is fair, accurate, or factual.  If it associates us with negative things, no matter if real or not, then it is "good."  That's who they are, and that's the tactics they have chosen.

Mistwell

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Re: From WOTC to Hasbro...
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2022, 09:19:15 PM »
5e actually has been holding up very well AFAICT - it has great 'legs', which seems to have been part of the (Mearls-led) plan 2012-14. While I don't think Crawford's recent messing around with 5e has helped sales, I doubt it has impacted sales much either. I don't think his more Woke recent material has sold particularly well, but I don't think that has harmed the overall bottom line very much yet either. While a grognard like me gets upset over the removal of racial attribute bonuses, I don't think that kind of thing has any impact on new players.

I do think that Woke makes everything dreary and that this ultimately has a repellent effect on the mass market. But 5e was not particularly Woke at inception, and has a lot of momentum. I think Crawford has helped initiate a very slow gradual decline, I don't think stuff like Strixhaven is selling very well, but I would not expect to see a big drop off for several years on current trajectory. If Crawford pushes Woke too hard then the 2024 re-release may not do as well as expected. But whether Hasbro will push a course correction even then, I don't know.

I do think that compared to a mass market corporation like Disney, a large proportion of WotC's customers are likely more accepting of Woke elements. But still, there are very few SJWs in real life, and people play D&D at the table to have fun, not to virtue signal. So it can certainly go too far even for WotC.

This is correct.

IMHO 5e has not quite hit its peak.

It took Dr. Who about 10 years from its ratings peak to get to the state where nobody watches the show anymore. It took Marvel and DC comics a similar timeframe to put themselves in the gutter from their relative highs. (This was gone over in past threads.)

5e is in an interesting place in that its latest stuff has not sold as well as past material, and it is far enough in its edition cycle that a little bit of a decline is to be expected. Yet we know that the 50th is two years out and that will be a big deal for D&D.

5e will enjoy a bit of a bump before the decline resumes. And as the current Devs continue to slowly turn up the woke dial they will both hasten the decline, and IMHO; render themselves unable to properly service their core fanbase.

The interesting parallel to track right now is the Fate of WoW / Blizzard. WoW was the undisputed MMO king for years, but has recently been overtaken by the Final Fantasy MMO...

WoW is not as far along in its journey to ignominy as superhero comics and Dr. Who, but the parallels in company behavior between the D&D devs, and WoW devs are very interesting...


...
I mean what is so fucking hilarious about this thread is people who routinely claim, "Get Woke Go Broke" is a real thing are simultaneously trying to argue that WOTC - which has done INCREDIBLY well in recent years, far better than Hasbro itself - is also too woke and going broke because of it.

I don't even think you fuckers keep track of which positions you take anymore.


Being a disingenuous Liar again...

You know full well that the trajectory of "get woke, go broke" is an arc, not a sharp fall off a cliff, from our debates where you were taken to school.

I can post links to refresh your memory.

But I realize that this will be par for the course going forward, as having chronic selective amnesia, and willfully misrepresenting peoples positions are the only arrows you have left in your quiver...

D&D sales increased by 33% (record breaking) for 2020, and yet their publications for 2020 were far more "woke" than prior years.You just keep fucking lying about how they're doing though. And when called on it you change the subject and then state the lie again when you think you can get away with it. You have NEVER supported the claim that their sales went down as their "woke" content went up. Ever.

Numbers are not out yet for 2021 but how much you want to bet 2021 was another big year for them? You won't though. Because it's the heart of your entire argument and you will do anything to defend your world view, including invent your own facts.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 09:21:41 PM by Mistwell »

Jaeger

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Re: From WOTC to Hasbro...
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2022, 02:12:56 AM »
Mistwell: Your moves are weak.

Each meltdown screed is becoming more incoherent than the last.

Yet still I rise...


...
D&D sales increased by 33% (record breaking) for 2020, and yet their publications for 2020 were far more "woke" than prior years. You just keep fucking lying about how they're doing though. And when called on it you change the subject and then state the lie again when you think you can get away with it. You have NEVER supported the claim that their sales went down as their "woke" content went up. Ever.

Please Quote the post where I made that exact claim..

Oh, wait, never mind; you can't. Because you're lying.

Please refresh your memory of my positions by reviewing these past slap-downs you received:

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/dd-is-selling-great-why-not-sell-it-now/120/

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/will-the-current-woke-environment-hasten-or-delay-a-wotc-commitment-to-6th-ed/60/

My position quoted from those threads:


Quote from: Jaeger
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/will-the-current-woke-environment-hasten-or-delay-a-wotc-commitment-to-6th-ed/msg1161563/#msg1161563
...
In 5e we are only now starting to see the heat on the lobster pot getting turned up.

Personally, I don't think we will really know how things will go down until we see what they will do for the 50th in 2024.

And the signs are there that the people currently in charge of WOTC are willing to walk the same path that Marvel and DC comics have.


Outside of post 4e layoffs, Hasbro has been rather hands-off when it comes to WOTC. And Hasbro has also shown a willingness to indulge woke pleadings, the release of Ms. Monopoly being a prime example.

Does having great sales now somehow make D&D immune to the future loss of market share due to alienated fans walking away as we have seen in other media when they have doubled down on the woke path?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 11:28:28 AM by Jaeger »

Quote from: Jaeger
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/will-the-current-woke-environment-hasten-or-delay-a-wotc-commitment-to-6th-ed/msg1161908/#msg1161908
...
I and others make the argument that enough signs show that WOTC will continue to ramp up the woke to the point they start to alienate fans and wind up in a similar situation to the comics divisions of Marvel and DC.  ...


These are the positions I have stated on D&D and go-woke, go-broke.

You just got caught lying about, and willfully misrepresenting my position.  Again.


Numbers are not out yet for 2021 but how much you want to bet 2021 was another big year for them? You won't though. Because it's the heart of your entire argument and

Outright comedy.

The fact that you say this as a response to the post you quoted, where I said:


Quote from: Jaeger
IMHO 5e has not quite hit its peak.

It took Dr. Who about 10 years from its ratings peak to get to the state where nobody watches the show anymore. It took Marvel and DC comics a similar timeframe to put themselves in the gutter from their relative highs. (This was gone over in past threads.)

I am literally claiming the opposite of what you are saying I am!

Your ability to even comprehend what you are reading is obviously compromised.

1: You Lied.
2: You Doubled Down

And then...

3: You Projected.

...you will do anything to defend your world view, including invent your own facts.

In a single post you have successfully demonstrated to this forum the three laws of SJW's in action:

SJW's Always Lie.
SJW's Always Double Down.
SJW's Always Project.


They should thank you for providing such a textbook example of predictable SJW behavior.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 02:17:28 AM by Jaeger »
"The envious are not satisfied with equality; they secretly yearn for superiority and revenge."

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Re: From WOTC to Hasbro...
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2022, 02:32:55 AM »
They should thank you for providing such a textbook example of predictable SJW behavior.
Mistwell isn't a SJW.

Jaeger

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Re: From WOTC to Hasbro...
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2022, 03:48:59 AM »
Mistwell isn't a SJW.

At the very least he does a rather credible imitation of some of their more notable behaviors...
"The envious are not satisfied with equality; they secretly yearn for superiority and revenge."