Ed has rules for naughty underwear? Why am I not surprised? (Seeing Ed each year at Gencon is always one of the highlights).

Quote from: shooting_diceBlue Rose isn't particularly smug about it. It assumes that everybody's on the same page in regarding homophobes as assholes or religiously damaged dupes. That's the genre's position. Since homophobes actually are assholes or religiously damaged dupes, I don't see a problem with it. The Realms is far more sensationalistic about it, down to Ed's rules for naughty underwear.

Although I understand where you're coming from...I really do love the Blue Rose setting....I have to say that even though I wouldn't call it smug, I would say that the Aldea setting as written seems, IMO, to go a little bit out of it's way to "accept" homosexuality and the equal role of women. It's actually in the face of the reader about....almost as if daring the reader to disagree. IMO, if they had just included those ideas without emphasizing them so much it would have been a much more skillfully written setting. And by the way, isn't it just as wrong to be prejudiced against "homophobes" as it is to be prejudiced against anyone else?

Before you point out the source material again, let me point out that I have read Lackey, Le Guin, Robin Hobb, Kristen Britain, Melanie Rawn, and many others, so I do have some basis for my opinions. None of those writers (even Lackey) seem to feel the need to be as obvious in their points as the Blue Rose writers.

Once again though, I'd just like to point out that I am a huge fan of Blue Rose and True20, and I have every intention of running an Aldean campaign in the very near future. Despite what is IMO it's shortcomings, I still think Aldea is a really great setting with lots of potential.

Quote from: RPGPunditPretty much all of WW's D20 stuff was universally bad. In some cases (like Gamma World) it was done with the explicit objective of intentionally "re-making" a beloved fun game into a "serious and deep" setting because of their dislike for the "childishness" of the original. So their agenda was to try to subvert D20 and make it more of the story-based junk.  The only product they had for D20 that was really palatable was Ravenloft, and that's only because that's a setting where poseurish romanticism is part of the genre.

Scarred Lands was universally bad?  I know it's not everyone's cup of tea but it was a successful, reasonably popular setting, with several standout suppliments like Hallowfaust.  You're point seems to be boiling down to "Hurr White Wlof is teh suk"

QuoteAs for Exalted, Exalted is like the pornography they show on the "Art and Style" channel.. you know, the porn for the pseudo-intellectuals who are too anally retentive to admit they just want to get off, so they can't watch the playboy channel, but they can watch an "art" film that's basically just porn, and often more perverse than your run-of-the-mill Playboy channel porn?

Or, and I know this is a whacky notion, Exalted could be used by different people for different things.  There's a LOT in Exalted, in many ways it's more of a kitchen sink than even D&D is.  Some people use it to recreate mythic heroes.  Others use it for convoluted political play, or just release their inner munchkins with their Invincible Sword Princesses.

QuoteI've had people tell me with a straight face that D&D sucks for being "powergaming" but that Exalted is not in fact "powergaming" its "Dealing with the theme of how to cope with massive power".

Well I wouldn't say D&D sucks for being powergaming.  I don't care for it because it's too tactical and complicated and doesn't have enough social mechanics, but that's just my taste.  And Exalted is rather suited to dealing with the theme of how to cope with massive power.  You can do other things with it, or not play it at all.

QuoteThe problem WW was having was that even most of their fanboys were desperate to actually have some good, blowing-up-shit fun but they had all been brainwashed into thinking that this sort of honest pure enjoyment is not allowed; so along comes Exalted trying to couch blatant powergaming on a scale unimagined by the most munchkinish D&D Epic Level game in all kinds of flowery nonsense to pretend its still "deep". When of course it isn't.

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Yeah, that White Wolf sure does suck.  You sound as single minded and well ignorant as the "My hat of d02 know no limit" over on RPGnet.  Another point would be that I don't think it's fair to compare Exalted to high level D&D.  They're both complex, tactical, high powered games, but the D&D character is still a regular person.  They're powerful, and experienced, and great heroes.  But they'll never have the feel of an Exalt.  The Exalted are powerful because they are the chosen of the gods, reincarnations of the greatest heroes on a lost age.  You did not start as a lowly farmboy.  In fact, no lowly farmboy, even if he devoted his life to combat for 20 years, could even make you break a sweat.  You are simply a higher order of being.  The question stops being "Can you defeat your foes" and starts being "Who will you defeat and who will you side with?"

How many games of Exalted have you played?  I've not played many, but I wouldn't describe them as pretentious at all.  It's just awesome goodness, in the way that a 12 year old boy watching an anime about lesbian robot ninja warriors battling for honor is awesome.  

Quote from: LawbagI dont think the BR books are smug, but rather the BR forums and follow-up comments from the authors, thats where the smugness began, in so much as they believed they were treading new ground.

Sure they were. Nobody did that subgenre of fantasy before. The Realms is certainly influenced by that subgenre, but at the end of the day it's the D&D pulp genre. That's fun in its own right, but it's not what Blue Rose is about.

As for treatments of sexuality in RPGs, I can think of predecessors to both BR and the FRCS. Until recently (like, whenever the FRCS came out), sexuality in the Realms was basically whatever bawdy intimations Ed could get past editing (like it being implied that Lhaeo was pretending to be Elminister's boy in the most stereotypes way possible, right down to lisping), but before then, treatments of varying quality could be found in lots of different RPGs.

In any event, if your complaints lie outside the text, then they aren't really *with* the text.

Quote from: SigmundAlthough I understand where you're coming from...I really do love the Blue Rose setting....I have to say that even though I wouldn't call it smug, I would say that the Aldea setting as written seems, IMO, to go a little bit out of it's way to "accept" homosexuality and the equal role of women. It's actually in the face of the reader about....almost as if daring the reader to disagree. IMO, if they had just included those ideas without emphasizing them so much it would have been a much more skillfully written setting. And by the way, isn't it just as wrong to be prejudiced against "homophobes" as it is to be prejudiced against anyone else?

Before you point out the source material again, let me point out that I have read Lackey, Le Guin, Robin Hobb, Kristen Britain, Melanie Rawn, and many others, so I do have some basis for my opinions. None of those writers (even Lackey) seem to feel the need to be as obvious in their points as the Blue Rose writers.

Once again though, I'd just like to point out that I am a huge fan of Blue Rose and True20, and I have every intention of running an Aldean campaign in the very near future. Despite what is IMO it's shortcomings, I still think Aldea is a really great setting with lots of potential.

Well, there are two problems the writers have to deal with:

1) It's not fiction. Because it's straightforward description, they do have to go and mention these things in a dry, matter of fact way. In a novel, you can present how such things are No Big Deal by showing (have two dudes embrace) and implying. That leads us to:

2) Sexuality in fantasy RPGs is not "baseline." Fantasy gaming really does take after Tolkien where sex is concerned, pushing it to the back seat. But it *is* baseline in the genre. So it has to get in there somewhere.

If you want gratuitous sex in an RPG book, there's always the Book of Erotic Fantasy. I read the preview at GenCon 03. I was stupider for having read it.

Quote from: shooting_diceBlue Rose isn't particularly smug about it. It assumes that everybody's on the same page in regarding homophobes as assholes or religiously damaged dupes. That's the genre's position. Since homophobes actually are assholes or religiously damaged dupes, I don't see a problem with it. The Realms is far more sensationalistic about it, down to Ed's rules for naughty underwear.

The "smugness" comes in at the meta-setting level. Its smug at the level of designers, in other words. Its sort of like if a program on TV today made a really big deal about having an inter-racial kiss. Its like, "Dude, you're pc, we get it, but people have been addressing that since the 60s, don't act like you just fucking invented it".

Its the same with Green Ronin and BR; they were going around acting like they own the fucking trademark on "feminism" or "gay equality" in RPGs. Like they were being all heroic and cutting edge for having characters that *GASP* kiss each other and are both boys! I mean, really, time for them to get over themselves.

RPGPundit

Quote from: SigmundAlthough I understand where you're coming from...I really do love the Blue Rose setting....I have to say that even though I wouldn't call it smug, I would say that the Aldea setting as written seems, IMO, to go a little bit out of it's way to "accept" homosexuality and the equal role of women. It's actually in the face of the reader about....almost as if daring the reader to disagree. IMO, if they had just included those ideas without emphasizing them so much it would have been a much more skillfully written setting. And by the way, isn't it just as wrong to be prejudiced against "homophobes" as it is to be prejudiced against anyone else?
Before you point out the source material again, let me point out that I have read Lackey, Le Guin, Robin Hobb, Kristen Britain, Melanie Rawn, and many others, so I do have some basis for my opinions. None of those writers (even Lackey) seem to feel the need to be as obvious in their points as the Blue Rose writers.

Well, you know, most of those writers were writing to a market of heterosexual teenage and young adult women; and their "agenda" was to appeal to that wierd yaoi-phenomenon that young heterosexual women get all fucked up about in their brain chemistry.

Whereas Steve Kenson (and to a lesser extent the rest of the GR crew) had a whole different "agenda" going. I guess Steve has a serious need to have a Hero complex... of course, we already knew that from his Mary Sue character in every Shadowrun book he ever wrote.

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Quote from: MaddmanYeah, that White Wolf sure does suck.  You sound as single minded and well ignorant as the "My hat of d02 know no limit" over on RPGnet.  Another point would be that I don't think it's fair to compare Exalted to high level D&D.  They're both complex, tactical, high powered games, but the D&D character is still a regular person.  They're powerful, and experienced, and great heroes.  But they'll never have the feel of an Exalt.  The Exalted are powerful because they are the chosen of the gods, reincarnations of the greatest heroes on a lost age.  You did not start as a lowly farmboy.  In fact, no lowly farmboy, even if he devoted his life to combat for 20 years, could even make you break a sweat.  You are simply a higher order of being.  The question stops being "Can you defeat your foes" and starts being "Who will you defeat and who will you side with?"

Yes, we're all quite familiar with White Wolf's complete inability to present normal human beings as heros in any way. Or rather, their crypto-fascist obsession with presenting their protagonists (and, by extension the gamers who play them) as misunderstood superhuman elites who are nevertheless shunned by society because society doesn't understand how amazing they are. They are the true natural leaders and rulers but humanity despises them, but its humanity's fault because humanity is cruel and ignorant (except, you know, non-western tribal cultures), and humanity is just jealous of their power.

White Wolf games are always one big metaphor for the self-images of gamers who were beaten up in high school for being in the Poetry Club and thinking they're superior to everyone else by no earned virtue. We get it.

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I for one am happy that RPGPundit is expanding his schtick to include the blasting of Green Ronin over Blue Rose.  It's a good thing to be so flexible.  Now maybe the rants will morph into something that those of us that have read ENW and RPGNet haven't heard before!

Quote from: RPGPunditThe "smugness" comes in at the meta-setting level. Its smug at the level of designers, in other words. Its sort of like if a program on TV today made a really big deal about having an inter-racial kiss. Its like, "Dude, you're pc, we get it, but people have been addressing that since the 60s, don't act like you just fucking invented it".

Its the same with Green Ronin and BR; they were going around acting like they own the fucking trademark on "feminism" or "gay equality" in RPGs. Like they were being all heroic and cutting edge for having characters that *GASP* kiss each other and are both boys! I mean, really, time for them to get over themselves.

RPGPundit

Where exactly is this in the text of the game?

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, we're all quite familiar with White Wolf's complete inability to present normal human beings as heros in any way. Or rather, their crypto-fascist obsession with presenting their protagonists (and, by extension the gamers who play them) as misunderstood superhuman elites who are nevertheless shunned by society because society doesn't understand how amazing they are. They are the true natural leaders and rulers but humanity despises them, but its humanity's fault because humanity is cruel and ignorant (except, you know, non-western tribal cultures), and humanity is just jealous of their power.

White Wolf games are always one big metaphor for the self-images of gamers who were beaten up in high school for being in the Poetry Club and thinking they're superior to everyone else by no earned virtue. We get it.

RPGPundit

Yes, but indulge us and actually cite examples from the text of Exalted instead of talking out of your ass, and your statements might actually have some argumentative standing.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhite Wolf games are always one big metaphor for the self-images of gamers who were beaten up in high school for being in the Poetry Club and thinking they're superior to everyone else by no earned virtue. We get it.

RPGPundit

Having met the developers and their "friends," back in the day (I honestly can't speak for the current group, because some left) and having been forced to, "hang," with them being VIP's at the Con my friend's Parents ran/owned, he's not far off on the image they try to pass and be themselves.  But then again between that, the diatribes against other games, and wanting to fuck and get loaded/high the image isn't hard to remove.

Then again I don't know if these are the same current development team/members. Then again from the discussions I have had with LARPers that a lot of the Cambria (sp) gatherings were very much like RPG describes (as in personality and presentation).  Your milage may very.

Now is all this backlash against RPG because of personal like of the system blinding opinion or genuine disapproval of what he presents.  Would anyone care if it was F.A.T.A.L or d30 Hypersmurfs or the like?  Just curious.

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, we're all quite familiar with White Wolf's complete inability to present normal human beings as heros in any way. Or rather, their crypto-fascist obsession with presenting their protagonists (and, by extension the gamers who play them) as misunderstood superhuman elites who are nevertheless shunned by society because society doesn't understand how amazing they are. They are the true natural leaders and rulers but humanity despises them, but its humanity's fault because humanity is cruel and ignorant (except, you know, non-western tribal cultures), and humanity is just jealous of their power.

White Wolf games are always one big metaphor for the self-images of gamers who were beaten up in high school for being in the Poetry Club and thinking they're superior to everyone else by no earned virtue. We get it.

RPGPundit

Again, World of Darkness features humans as the PCs/main protagonists.  And in fact, they have no superpowers/spells/psionics at all!  And one can certainly play a heroic mortal in Exalted, it just isn't the default setting.

Yes, White Wolf's games in the 90s tapped into that submarket - not only RPG geeks but gothy types as well that were full of angst and felt overlooked and unappreciated by society.  I don't know why making games to appeal to people like that is such a sin against gaming.

What is wrong with looking for a rule-set that works for you and your group, having fun with it (whatever that means to you) and ignoring the kind of fuckwits that waste so much damn time arguing about whether one game or gaming style is inherently inferior to another, or if only fag0ts play X system, etc. . . etc. . .ad infinitum. . . ad nauseum?

If some other people want to talk about "game theory" and pretend that they are better than other people for it, who the fuck cares?  

A lot of Nisarg's point seems to boil down to: "The way I game/think is better than theirs because they think the way they game/think is better than mine!"

The irony is his attitude and rants seem to me to be as much of a waste of time as yanking it while discussing tropes.

"Those people over there like to feel like they're smart when they aren't!"  To me that covers about 90% of the world both inside and outside of gaming.  I'd rather concentrate on my own deal.

I been spending more time over at ENworld again, at least once a day I will be browsing D&D threads and feel like people are just playing a nearly totally different game than I am (and I play D&D mostly) and in a way they are, but as long as some of the stuff in their game overlaps with some of the stuff in my game there is still something to be gained from it.

Quote from: shooting_diceWhere exactly is this in the text of the game?

Its throughout the setting section, throughout the publicity, throughout the fan reactions of the swine, in other words everywhere. And you fucking know it is.

I feel absolutely no need to waste hours of my day looking up specific instances to make arguments about a generality just because you challenge me to a pissing contest on the forum, Eyebeamz.  You want to turn around and claim "ooh, see, he doesn't cite SPECIFIC TEXT which means he's wrong because CITING SPECIFIC TEXT is so terribly important!"

If I gave a shit about your little rhetorical ploy, I could find all kinds of mentions of "prince whatsisname was married to prince whatsisface...(subtext: SEE?!! BOYS KISSING!! AREN'T WE AMAZINGLY LIBERAL AND HIP??)".

And if you don't want to pretend that the buzz they tried to generate throughout the long period of Blue-Rose-anticipation was not based largely on "our setting is radically different because it will portray homosexuals and women in important positions, unlike any other game evar!!1!", then feel free to smoke your own illusion, dude.

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