To Hell with the Cat Piss Men. What RPGs need is a half-nude supermodel rolling d20s on a Maxim centerfold.


Er, did I actually say that loud?



EDIT: What I tried to say is that we need is making RPGs mainstream. Somehow, I ended up going down the humor road.

Quote from: JongWKTo Hell with the Cat Piss Men. What RPGs need is a half-nude supermodel rolling d20s on a Maxim centerfold.


Er, did I actually say that loud?

It's already been done.  They're called "Avalanche Press". :heh:

QuoteTo Hell with the Cat Piss Men. What RPGs need is a half-nude supermodel rolling d20s on a Maxim centerfold.


Er, did I actually say that loud?

No - you didn't.

The Swine are defined in one of the earliest blog entries:

http://www.xanga.com/RPGpundit/273170878/item.html

This is also a very important essay on the topic of "defining Swine":

http://www.xanga.com/RPGpundit/445195849/item.html

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThe Swine are defined in one of the earliest blog entries:

http://www.xanga.com/RPGpundit/273170878/item.html

This is also a very important essay on the topic of "defining Swine":

http://www.xanga.com/RPGpundit/445195849/item.html

RPGPundit

Something you should realize: the opinions of Swine are as valid as non-Swine.  Their 'artsy-fartsy' style of play is just as valid as the 'smash and loot' style of play of D&D.  I'm an old woman of gaming, myself, and the 'smash and loot' style of play doesn't appeal to me anymore.  It's too shallow for me, having only the thinnest level of interest for me.  This is why I don't play D&D much anymore, because I've experienced this level of play most often in D&D- where it's not who your chatacter is, but more of what cool powers your character has.  I've seen dozens, if not hundreds of theads on other boards discussing character builds, and only a fraction discussing character background or story motives.  It's simply not a style of gaming that I like anymore.

Quote from: OddveigI know who he is.  Ironically, I'm probably one of the RPGnet swine he rails at. :deviousgrin:

Hey, I'm almost completely sure that I'm some kind of rare suckling pig, from his perspective.  So, all good.

Quote from: OddveigSomething you should realize: the opinions of Swine are as valid as non-Swine.  Their 'artsy-fartsy' style of play is just as valid as the 'smash and loot' style of play of D&D.  I'm an old woman of gaming, myself, and the 'smash and loot' style of play doesn't appeal to me anymore.  It's too shallow for me, having only the thinnest level of interest for me.  This is why I don't play D&D much anymore, because I've experienced this level of play most often in D&D- where it's not who your chatacter is, but more of what cool powers your character has.  I've seen dozens, if not hundreds of theads on other boards discussing character builds, and only a fraction discussing character background or story motives.  It's simply not a style of gaming that I like anymore.

Dude, did you actually read either of the links?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditDude, did you actually read either of the links?

RPGPundit

Sorry Pundit but I did and my reaction would be pretty close to her's.  While I do agree somewhat with some of your points I don't think you can single White Wolf out for "storytelling" as something bad.

Every system has its own "fatbeards", White Wolf just has a different version of them than D&D does.

Quote from: RPGPunditDude, did you actually read either of the links?

RPGPundit

Oh, I did, and you make some valid points.  However, just because coffee is on the menu at a coffee shop because it's the most popular beverage, doesn't mean that taste buds of tea drinkers aren't worth noting.  Which is why coffee shops serve tea, too.

Well, I for one want, need narrative elements in a game; I enjoy meta-plots and campaign arcs and character acting; and (in an assuredly masculine and heterosexual way) I want to be maddman's bitch and bear his children.

But I do all this to have fun. Fun is the major factor when I game. I don't seek enlightenment or sophistication in an RPG, at least not as an end to itself.

So I never considered my self to be Swine, even when I tossed loads of d10s on the table in a Vampire game (not that I was aware of Swine at that moment).

I think RPGPundit has more of an issue with the fatbeards of the hobby- the smelly, unwashed fuckers who think that their way of gaming is the only true way, and everyone else is a dumbass because they can't see it.  This kind of thinking isn't restricted to WW gamers; I've seen them in just about any game I've ever played.  I've gamed with D&D gamers who will play nothing BUT D&D and thinks that everything else sucks, and it should be the only game on the planet.

Please help stop the spread of Fatbeardism; use a hammer and make the world a better place.

My point in asking if the links had actually been read is that the essays, the second in particular, make it very clear that being a "Swine" has far less to do with the kinds of things you're talking about, and far more to do with being someone who thinks RPGs have some intrinsic value for the promotion of one's raison d'etre.

In other words, Swine are people who think they are "intellectuals" because they play White Wolf games, or people who think they're "Artistes" because they play Forge games.

These people wouldn't be dangerous in and of themselves except for the fact that to them, the popularization of RPGs would be directly counterproductive to the role RPGs play in their self image. Its hard to see one's self as the "special elite who get it" if everyone is playing; and its hard to argue that RPGs are really deep pursuits that validate one's existence if everyone is just playing them for shits and giggles. So the Swine have a vested interest in opposing RPGs being either fun or popular.

Anyways, I'd say go back and read the essay again if you read it already, because I think you came into it with some predetermined ideas of what you thought I was talking about by "Swine", and the point of the essay is to counter those exact presuppositions.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditMy point in asking if the links had actually been read is that the essays, the second in particular, make it very clear that being a "Swine" has far less to do with the kinds of things you're talking about, and far more to do with being someone who thinks RPGs have some intrinsic value for the promotion of one's raison d'etre.

In other words, Swine are people who think they are "intellectuals" because they play White Wolf games, or people who think they're "Artistes" because they play Forge games.

These people wouldn't be dangerous in and of themselves except for the fact that to them, the popularization of RPGs would be directly counterproductive to the role RPGs play in their self image. Its hard to see one's self as the "special elite who get it" if everyone is playing; and its hard to argue that RPGs are really deep pursuits that validate one's existence if everyone is just playing them for shits and giggles. So the Swine have a vested interest in opposing RPGs being either fun or popular.

Anyways, I'd say go back and read the essay again if you read it already, because I think you came into it with some predetermined ideas of what you thought I was talking about by "Swine", and the point of the essay is to counter those exact presuppositions.

RPGPundit

Well, these kinds of people (and let's be honest, they ARE fatbeards), have picked a particular game in the same way as some might pick a particular religion- it becomes a worldview.  They've settleled on it, spent time and money on it, and therefore their choice is never 'wrong', nor is anyone else's choice 'right' if it's in any way different from the fatbeard's chosen game.  The only reason WW might be a bit worse in this is that some of the fatbeards have crept up into the writing department (where they speak haughtly of the WW style of play as superior).

Really the best thing that could happen to White Wolf was WoD2.0, because it trimmed out a lot of the bullshit, purple prose, and elitism. Since the switchover the writing has been a lot more solid and doesn't take itself so seriously.

Quote from: Sojourner JudasReally the best thing that could happen to White Wolf was WoD2.0, because it trimmed out a lot of the bullshit, purple prose, and elitism. Since the switchover the writing has been a lot more solid and doesn't take itself so seriously.

I agree 100% on that.  The new WoD funcitons much more as a toolkit for the kind of game you want.